My suggestion as the #1 thing to do is: Look (refocus) on where you want the bike to go. This sounds easy, but takes some practice training your mind to QUIT looking at what ever danger has presented itself (if you run wider and wider, then go off the road). You'll be surprised just how much the bike can do. You'll also be pleasantly surprised just how quick the bike will go where you're looking. This is good and bad. As I alluded to above... if you're looking at the danger (guard rail, tree, cliff, gravel, etc.), it can work against you, because you'll end up going right for what ever you're looking at. But if you talk yourself out of looking at that crap, but rather looking where you NEED the bike to go... just the same it'll go there too! Have faith!! Trust the bike.

Best thing to do is go to the track and work on some technique there. There's a lot of great people at the track that are more than willing to help you out. You're likely to learn more in a couple days of track days than you have in 10+ years of street riding.

That's my $.02...

 

Well...The first thing to do is not run wide ...well if you are already inside that problem...well, first thing to do dont hit the break or chop the throttle, lean more and you can do a technique called hook turn to rapidly go inside...Ill just lean more, trust my tires and keep the throttle going...you´ll have plenty of time afterward to panic and freek out! If you hit the breaks the bike will stand up running wider or if you hit it to much youll loose the front...same thing if you chop the throttle the weight transfers to the front (same thing as breaking) got it?
Some times when if have runed wide i have done a controled break and getting off the throttle slowly and going off the road...well thats because it was obious that there was space to do some motocross...if not im sure i will do the first recomendation...trust tires, lean more, and keep the throttle going smoothly after the more leaning is done...

 

I totally agree. Looking is paramount. I look in, apex, exit. This works 100% of the time but this particular episode I was in too fast and I had to either brake or lean the bike. If I had braked chances the bike would have stood up and sent me out even wider. I gave the brake a snap and leaned the bike over hopeing not to max out and slide.

 

like whats being stated above, look where you want to go and the bike will go there. let go of the throttle, but don't use the brake, or if you do no heavy braking.

 

part of your advice is good but telling someone to let go of the throttle is very bad advice. letting go of the throttle (chopping it) in a heavy lean will cause the front tire to become over loaded and wash out. better advice would be to maintain or slowly increase throttle to transfer the weight of the bike to the back tire and increase your lean and counter steer the bike will turn and lean a lot more then you think

 

Grab Keith Code's book(s) and/or video(s).

https://secure.echoalley.com/superbikeschool/store/

If you can arrange it, take the classes. I can't tell you how much I've improved my street and track riding - this will be my third year in a row.

 

Fido, do you need to have experience to take the course. e.i. having raced o done track. I have never been on a race track although I have many miles from travelling.

 

As stated above, look where you want to go. Then drop your inside arm and T U R N. Sounds simple but, turn the bike. You'll be surprised that's all it takes. PS: don't chop the throttle, continue using maintenance throttle. You're going to build confidence once your comfortable with the bike's ability.

 

This kind of topic is interesting because it shows the riding skills are not pure science. One issue and many how to solve ways regarding personal experiences.
About mine, and for low speed corners (in 1st or 2nd gear) I use the here under tricks, up to you to you to test them :
- before apex and at the all end of the brake phase I shut down the throttle => it helps the front end of the bike to go to the apex. If you want to appreciate this, you can stop braking a lit bit too early then to shut down throttle, the bike goes to the apex in a natural way.
- after the apex, I start to throttle just at the apex in a progressive maner=> it avoids to go too wide as a "free" bike does. Despte of that and in case of too widing lane, I use the rear brake in the same time I throttle : it makes use the "chain effect" (sorry, I did not know the english words) as a counter part.

 

First response is spot on IMHO. Doing a trackday or two will teach you that the bike is capable of a lot more than any sane road rider will ever throw at it. The benefit of experiencing this first hand is the level of confidence it gives you in calling on the bike's reserve grip.

Many silly crashes happen because people panic, don't believe the bike will lean as far as they need and so they stare at the place they want to avoid and grab the brakes, forcing the bike to sit up and go straight at the worst point. If this puts you across the path of oncoming traffic, goodnight Irene.

Never underestimate the power of looking where you want to go and maintaining smooth inputs to the bike. Avoid sudden changes in balance (loading the front, spinning the rear) and trust your bike. At the end of the day, it is usually better to lowside than to pile headlong over a cliff.

 

it sounds like you were in a series of quick transitions. avoid instinct. don't touch the brakes. maintain throttle. and get MORE AGRESSIVE if the bike isn't turning as much as you want. Worst that could happen is a front end washout and lowsiding...which is much, much better than running into a tree fully upright, or highsiding (which is harder, but not impossible, to do with the DTC). Do everything opposite of anything that will stand the bike up. More throttle. more lean. I've found that the S100RR does require some manhandling to really throw around in fast transitions.

 

it sounds like you were in a series of quick transitions.

Exactly, I was in a very steep down hill road with transitions to the left and right. What I found hard was that the bike wanted to go down hill on its own.
I down shifted but soon after it would pick up speed again.

 

Rique, they expect that you are at least a competent street rider - sounds like you've got that covered. I was quite nervous my first time out on the track, but the excellent instruction and controlled environment made the transition quite easy, and I was very quickly hooked on track riding. You'll have an assigned on-track coach in addition to the class instruction and off-track drills. In each of my Superbike School sessions, there have been a wide range of skill levels and experience.

 

I play the tape back in my mind in slow mo and say to myself, yep should have not hit the brakes or should have leaned her a bit more. But man I was flying and the time you have to make a decsion like not hitting the brakes are in the millisecond range.

 

The exact reason going to some track days will give you the experience necessary to not only make the correct decisions but make them quickly.

I had something similar as you had happen a ways back... the difference is I hit an oncoming pickup truck (head on)... After that and once I got a new bike, I took my asss to the track. My first track day out I over cooked a turn.... bad for my comfort level at the time. I read and was told about the looking through the turn thing and looking where you want the bike to go... and not target fixating (on the bad stuff)... well that first time, I said fuk it and just looked where I wanted to go (forced myself to look away from the bad) and laid the bike in and went for it... she hooked up, and I was saying explicitives (happily) in my helmet on the next bit of straight. After that, I continued to progress and work on various techniques with the help of some great riders (and now friends)... I'm a much better rider on the street now and have a better understanding of what the bike can really do... and it is pretty amazing!

Get to the track!

 

A lot of riders I see out there get screwed up through a series of corners/transitions, because they are early apexing the corners. If you are always early on your apex, even slightly, each corner adds up until you basically end up completely out of options.

I would say that about 80% of the riders I have ridden with in the last 30 years are early apexers. I'm not sure why this is, but my friend Mike is a prime example. He mistakenly thinks that an early apex is "safe".. not so, especially through a series of corners that you cannot see through..

Early Apex

Early (dark blue), late (light blue) and classic (green) Apex diagram

A series of corners with late Apex:

An early Apex can leave you hung out and headed over the yellow line into oncoming traffic or over a cliff.

 

Interesting observation SBS... I'll have to pay attention to some of my buddies next time. When my shitt went south leading to my wreck, it wasn't due to early apexing... my rear locked up coming into the turn and quite frankly I didn't have enough tools in my toolbox to deal with it... So panic set in quick, then target fixation, then KaBLAMMY... then flying through the air, and a hindered feet later saying "I'm alive!"

 

To achieve late apexing, you need more confidence in lean angles, as you go deeper and turn harder. Early apexing indicates a more nervous - or at least less confident - rider usually.

However as the drawings above indicate, an early apex simply means you have to overcorrect when faced with the side of the road, when you don't have the luxury of time and visibility.

Very good point.

 

I recall reading in Lee Parks book, Total Control, advice on late turning that then give shape to a "J" shaped turning line. I've seen it on paper but never an actuall video of an example.

 

Answer: Keep from going wide again. Solution: Slow in, fast out.

 

Triple T, in text book world you are right. Reality for riders is different specially when going down hill and bike wants to follow gravity. The discussion here is what to do when slow in is history. I think we got it covered though.

 

Rique... There are a few options after you have gone wide.:

1. Keep trying to make the corner anyway. As was pointed out by Kismet and a couple of others. Most riders don't really understand how much lean angle their Bikes can REALLY get away with; this is why trackdays are so good for your riding skills, it teaches you how much lean angle you can carry for real. Sometimes you just grit your teeth and lean more and you WILL make it round the corner.

2. If there is runoff and you can see through the corner and there is no oncoming traffic, then you can get the bike upright, brake just enough to scrub enough speed off to make the corner, then get back into the corner again; I have done this on occasion where I come though a corner and find a big piece of debris in the way.. I flick the Bike upright to steer round the object, get on the brakes while I am upright, recalculate the new line through the corner, then get the Bike back down into the corner and make it.

3. If all is truly lost and you know you are fu(ked. As others have said, choosing your own poison can be the least bad of all the bad options available to you. A low speed lowside can be the best outcome for both you and the Bike. Obviously, if there is oncoming traffic, this option can get you killed.

4. I have bailed on a corner by basically looking for oncoming traffic and looking for a safe way to go ahead of me. About 18 years ago, I was on my GSXR 1100, I was too early on my apex in a right hander, but I could see through it. I realized I had screwed the corner up and saw a gravel pullout/passing cutout on the other side of the road. I flicked the Bike up right, got HARD on the brakes to scrub off as much speed as I could while I was still on asphalt, then as soon as I was about to hit the gravel, I let off the brakes a bit (but still kept a bit of pressure on the front lever) and managed to stop before the edge of a small cliff. The Bike stayed upright and I was ok, other than needing a change of underwear.


Mostly, you should remember that on the street, you should NEVER, EVER ride at 100% of your abilities!!! It leave zero room for unanticipated problems like road debris, wild animals, wet patches in the shade, etc, etc. Keep your adrenaline, testosterone and ego in check and don't over-ride your Bike. If you go on group rides with friends that are way faster than you, don't try to keep up, that's a recipe for disaster. They should wait for you at major intersections or where you plan to stop next.

Do a few track days and get a real understanding of the limits of yourself and your Bike. Work on your skills and ride with people who are better and faster than you are (without riding in a pack of lunatics who are going to ride as if the public roads are Laguna Seca Raceway).

I learned exactly this way. Rode with some AFM racers, one of whom rode a Honda 400 and kicked everyone's ass in the corners, especially on the downhills, I did the Keith Code SuperBike school and also Bob Bondurant Car and Shifter Kart schools as well as Skip Barber and a couple of others as well. I also started Club Racing in both Cars and on Motorcycles.

I have been a Race Car driving instructor for the last 17 years, but I still refresh my own skillset every couple of years.

 

Appreciate the write up SBS I hope I'm not the only one who is taking advantage of this information. thanks again.

 

My advice. >Throttle = standing up <Throttle will tighten the turn so SLOWLY roll off the throttle and it will tighten up


NEVER make rapid adjustments to speed in a corner.

 

I guess in my 32 years of riding, I've never hit a corner so fast that I couldn't imagine not be able to lean the bike further and make it through.

Now to put this into perspective, I don't ride fast because I have a fear of CRASHING, so with that, I try to ride within my personal known limits. As years have gone by, my limits have gone up.

Stay within your comfort zone, anyone who is dedicated to staying upright can can do this and avoiding crashing which it typically 80% due to rider fault/error.

TT

 

+1 on track and schools like CSS.
a rule of thumb i heard or read was after a year of riding experience, you are ready to take one of the more advanced riding classes. Lee Parks TARC is intermediate speed between Advanced MSF and the track schools. I personally got a lot out of Keith Code's CSS and am going back for more. You're always a student!
Also, I'm getting benefit out of the thread too, not just you. thx for post.

 

According to Keith Code from twist of the wrist II...

"On the road dropping to the inside and down position plus a smooth roll off, or momentary hesitation, not a chop off the gas tends to tighte the turn for you and don't forget to look were you want to go"

Just for the record.

 

A tremendous amount of valuable experience in all the posts. My experience on tight down-hill twisties, staying in your lane, is to keep the hard braking in a straight line to the left of your lane on approach to the turn. Then pick the apex based on the center -line, a little late with a sharper turn-in or a little early if you are looking TOTALLY ahead of your line into the turn. If you are a little hot, keeping vision into the turn, evenly turned in, and you can "trail brake" lightly on the rear brake only to scrub a little speed, but keep the throttle constant, not accelerating or cutting, and lean in. Never hit the front brake, do shift your butt back if you're still thinking, and lean into the turn. By this point, you probably have gained vivsion around the blind turn, and can see if it is clear of on-coming traffic, maybe crossing the center-line on an early apex, maybe correcting to vertical a little, but not getting on the throttle until you are vertical and clear of the turn. Chances are in N.C. you will have another tight twistie in 100-200 yards. Repeat the above. Track racers, you guys basically can turn tighter and get back on the gas quicker while laid over. We can't "race" down-hill in tight twisties in the mountains; you can just go fast between the twisties. The most left-rights I have counted in a down-hill run was 42, and I was about exhausted by the time I got quickly to the bottom. When you realize fatigue setting in or reaction time slowing down, quit trying to fight the mountain and SLOW DOWN. For what it's worth.......

 

1. If I'm breaking hard prior to a corner, I'm going way to fast and risking life and limb for what? My rule is if I'm braking, I'm going to fast. Maybe this is why I'm easy on tires and breaks.

2. To aid with down hill riding, grip the tank with your knees and that should add enough support to make you feel more in control of your bike.

3. Going over the double yellow is a recipe for disaster, the yellow line is slick and/or has sand or dirt build up, this is not the place you want to be when leaned over. My rule of thumb, double-yellow+ lava, and tires don't like lava.

4. Trail breaking on City roads? Surely it can be done, but again pushing the limits way to much for the street. Most people that ride track recognize and gain respect for the streets and it's limits.

5. Having a tiny amount of throttle is necessary when going through a corner hot, getting off the throttle upsets (unloads) the bike and adds to the "I'm in trouble" feeling.

You heard they're are two kinds of riders, well there really are three, but you rarely hear about the 3rd kind. That is the rider that knows and respects ones abilities and has enough luck not to crash. I'm dedicated to staying upright, and although it's not guaranteed, it can be obtained, but only if you do your part.

Michael

 

Besides of what has yet been said, and just after doing that (now you are into the turn, and looking to the point you want to reach, running wide though), once the weight is balanced, you can always make some countersteering, slightly push the inside bar, and the bike will tight the line.

Try it your next track day.