Interested to see this discussion. I know I don't actively think about it, but I make sure that I adjust speed and entry point prior to coming up onto a curve/corner.

 

That's a good question. If I understand your question, you asking about the line or path of travel as well as the apex of the turn. The answer is unequivocally yes. The angle at which you enter the turn will determine your apex and where you will be at the exit.

If you took an MSF class or other basic operator class, you might remember the "outside/inside/outside" set up for a turn. The idea is minimize the time spent on the edges of the tire and more time on the fat part of the rear tire.

The answer to your second question; does it matter if you're at an angle or straight on; yes and I hope I described it a little above. I think it helps to remember the outside/inside/outside technique when you're riding.

Hope that helps! Post back if you need more info.

 

great question, which is likely to get a lot of responses.

Of course the angle at which you approach a corner is important. You set your corner entry point based on where you want to exit the corner, and where in the corner you want to be the tightest inside the corner (called the Apex).

If you enter wide you can exit shallow, but if you turn in too early you will push wide on the exit.

On the race track, you have to find "Points Of Timing" - these are physical reference points that mark activities like braking, turn in, etc., so that you can ride every lap the same and use intelligent experiments to improve track times.

There are a few Youtube videos that review it. Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist" is an excellent read.

My personal experience, which may be different than others; in club races I found that I could brake later in turn in from a wider position than I almost always anticipate. As a novice I would always turn in to early and get pushed wide on the exit. When you leave a lot of room on the inside you can get passed on the inside, but you can keep your corner speed and exit speed up this way. Trail braking enters the picture, and helps keep speed on corner entry, but it isn't for the faint of heart.

 

My personal experience, which may be different than others; in club races I found that I could brake later in turn in from a wider position than I almost always anticipate. As a novice I would always turn in to early and get pushed wide on the exit.

Excellent points here. Yes, if you turn in too early then you are forced to run wide at the exit and usually a turn in point that it set out wider will help you have a better line. Like CMRA 270 said, the usual format is Outside/Inside/Outside. What I'm talking about is a little bit more specific then that even.

For example, you're approaching a right hand turn and your turn in point it out wide near the edge of the track on the left side....how does the ANGLE you approach that turn in point affect the outcome of your line. For example, you could approach the turn in point from a little further inside of the track, you could approach it straight on, or you could approach it from even wider to the outside of the track. How might the ANGLE of approach affect the outcome? :nerd:

Everything else being equal, the angle at which you approach turn-in will determine the amount you need to turn to reach the same apex.

Exactly. So let's just examine that a little bit more in depth...(see question above) :grin2:

 

Everything else being equal, the angle at which you approach turn-in will determine the amount you need to turn to reach the same apex.

 

A wider approach allows for less turning input to stay on the preferred line. It is easier and quicker to get to your desired lean angle. You also have more flexibility in choosing a late or early apex, throttle application, etc.

But I suspect you have more and/or something else in mind.

 

In it's most simplest terms yes, exactly. And I didn't really have anything else in mind...but there are a few more points that go along with what you said. :grin2:

Well it gets tricky. If you do typical outside/inside/outside and be as wide as possible on the track it's not always the ideal way to pick the right angle. I.e, blocking others from passing you, or unsafe passes if someone to pass u on the inside and crash (will make you crash with them).

It comes down to picking the right line and turning the bike at the right time to maximize turn exit (throttle on as early as possible). So this is easier said than done especially on unfamiliar tracks.

In summary three things to account for; the line, when to turn in the bike, the angle to use when turning. This all depends on the turn, apex, and riders (if passing or not, etc...). For me when to turn in the bike is the most challenging even when using reference points. The angle is just common sense; Enough lean angle to get you to lean the least so you have max grip.

Of course there are many different variables when racing or track riding that come into play when choosing your angle of attack, or your angle of approaching the turn in point. But, knowing that a wider approach (or what we call at the Superbike School a POSITIVE attack angle) can allow you to get through a corner with less overall lean angle and less steering input required can help you pick the ideal line. If you have to adjust because you are blocking a pass or passing someone that is fine as long as you are aware of the fact that if your angle of attack is different (you still hit the turn in point but from a different angle) you are also going to have to adjust how much steering input you have and how much lean angle you carry.

Attack angle also has an effect on stringing a series of turns together. VIR is a track that is a perfect example of this....if you make a mistake on your attack angle in one corner, it can often take you 6-7 corners to get back on the ideal line.

So what ways can you go about practicing and understanding more about angle of attack? Why is it important to practice different line and angles at which you approach your turn in points?

 

If you're on the street and in the twisty's, your angle will be set based on the exit of the previous turn, if on the track it will likely depend on traffic as well. Either way it doesn't seem like one of the major points I would concentrate on. Entry speed is the thing that I find hard to judge. From what I understand, braking earlier with a minimal amount of pressure will help settle your bike for hard braking and also help your brain cope with seeing a turn coming up quickly and help you from over braking. Once you've tipped in knowing when to get back in the gas was the next biggest problem for me. I always got on it too soon. Wait until your bike is almost pointing at the exit point.. When you can see thru the turn is how the instructor (Ken hill) put it.

 

Well it gets tricky. If you do typical outside/inside/outside and be as wide as possible on the track it's not always the ideal way to pick the right angle. I.e, blocking others from passing you, or unsafe passes if someone to pass u on the inside and crash (will make you crash with them).

It comes down to picking the right line and turning the bike at the right time to maximize turn exit (throttle on as early as possible). So this is easier said than done especially on unfamiliar tracks.

In summary three things to account for; the line, when to turn in the bike, the angle to use when turning. This all depends on the turn, apex, and riders (if passing or not, etc...). For me when to turn in the bike is the most challenging even when using reference points. The angle is just common sense; Enough lean angle to get you to lean the least so you have max grip.

 

When talking with Jason Pridmore, he suggested starting in the middle of the track to enter corners, then you can adjust accordingly.

But as stated above, knowing the different lines is very valuable, especially if you need to pass someone! If you are only comfortable in a single line, you will most likely get stuck behind a slower rider for quite some time

 

EXACTLY!!! Imagine deciding to dart up the inside of a rider in a daring pass only to realize you've never taken that tight of an inside line before and you don't know what to expect from it. Then imagine having practiced taking a tight inside line like and knowing that it will make the corner tighter and knowing what to do about it. It will give you a lot more confidence in making the pass in the first place and a lot better chance of making the corner and sticking the pass instead of running wide and being passed back or crashing. Always helpful to check out different lines and ways around the track!

What else could cause you to get stuck behind a slower rider?

 

The quick answer is: Late apex and slow in, fast out.