Now where's that "eating popcorn" icon?

 

I am doubling up on the popcorn!


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Wow I'm out of popcorn! :banghead:

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+50 HP and 220mph top speed.

 

Hmm, you sure about that?!?!

Seems a bit low.

 

You read that on the Internet, right? They were using Amsoil and a K&N filter I think.

 

Jimmy you running stock gearing? I would think you should have ran faster the 177 mph... You must have been running into a good head wind.. I would think these things should run 185 mph fairly easy in decent conditions... They are geared to go 190-192 ish with 17/45.

I made a quick hit on mine a couple weeks ago and saw 178 mph (speedo so its high) at 13,800 and that's with -1 up front. I figure it will run 180 mph (GPS) at 14,200 with -1. Wind has a lot to do with it.


I am also curious about the Flashes/tuners. I can see the power gain potential down low and midrange due to the throttle position restriction in the ECU until 9000, as far as top end power, I don't see how the flashes/tuners are really gonna add power over a dialed in Power Commander... UNLESS they add timing advance in the upper range. (Which I doubt)

Hell I know that if I could buy a tuner and gain even an honest 10 hp over my dyno tuned power commander setup, I'd buy one today... I just don't think there is much peak hp to be gained with one, especially on a bike that is properly mapped already.

 

Ajrothm i tried already with -1 on front and only got 172 by GPS the bikes cuts off would not go any more no wind that day just a long straight with stick gearing 177 just want to make sure I get an ecu flash that will give me what I need while removing all top end restrictions ,you are welcome to join us in the Sunday ride with the fast friends riders we meet at Dennis rest on beltway 8 and 1960 hwy6 and we can compare your GPS readings to what we got so far

 

Hey Jimmy, I have rode with y'all before.. You guys are considerably faster then me in the curves.. I did the Fayetteville ride once and could barely keep up..LOL. I ride with Gary occassionally and can't keep up in the twisties with him either..lol

I'm a sweepers and straight line kind of guy.. I will grab my GPS and test mine out Sunday with my -1 tooth and see what it does. I estimated it would go 180mph with the -1 but I may be mistaken.. I'll post up afterwards.


Does your bike pull to redline in top gear or just stop at like 13k? Something doesn't make sense to me. Even my 01 1000 would run 179-180 mph on GPS with 17/42 and a 13,500 redline. Hell it would go 178 in a mile.

 

Running a 190/50 is a contributing factor. That's like going up a tooth in back. Probably not a gigantic difference though

 

That does make a big difference. I didn't realize an HP4 has a 190/50/17 unlike the regular S1000rr with the 190/55/17.. That could definitely account for different top speed between the two bikes.

 

Jimmy, I'll try to GPS mine on Sunday. I won't be with you guys tho, I have a road down here I test on. I'll bring my good GPS that matches the Texas Mile timing system within 1 mph. I'll take a pic and post up.. Assuming the wind isn't too bad. If its windy, I don't top speed test.

I'll be curious to see what it does. I'm about to stretch it 4" and go up 1 tooth on the rear so it will really have no top speed then.

 

Pretty close I'd say... Close enough..

 

you guys ride in the Fayetteville area??? with a club or just a casual group? im riding with a club would love to ride with some other S1000rr riders! just got my HP4 comp a couple weeks ago. pm me if you guys can use another rider in the group!


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Pm sent to you

 

I purchase popcorn today. Im ready!

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Hey Jimmy, I did some testing today. Pretty much confirmed there is no "top speed" limiter or restriction on my bike. It ran to the 14,200 limiter in probably 3/4 mile with the 16 tooth front sprocket.



This is obviously all she has with 16/45 gearing and a 14,200 limiter. Based off of my math and what it ran today with 16/45 gears, I think it will go 186.5 mph with stock 17/45 gearing... So how people are getting 190 mph with stock gearing I have no clue... Mathematically its not even possible unless they have a taller tire. I'm running the 190/55/17 that has about 60% life left.(has 3k miles on it). Quite a few people here at the forum claim to have gone 191-192 on gps with stock gearing, not sure how seeing what my bike ran with only -1 on the front but... I can't see a -1 sprocket killing 15-16mph off the top speed.

As far as speedo error, using my Garmin gps (in the pics I posted on page 2), my speedo was reading 70 mph and GPS was 67.5 mph, so 2.5 mph off at 70. When I went to make my top speed run, my Garmin GPS lost signal in that area for some reason, so I had to use my phone's GPS and the Speed Pro app.. I have found this to be pretty accurate but it does have a delayed reading, thats why I kept it on the rev limiter so long so I could make sure the phone gps captured the speed. You'll see this in the video. I can not attest to the total accuracy of the phone gps/speed pro app, but I assume its pretty accurate if you allow it to "catch up". My Garmin GPS definitely tracks faster.

I'm working on the video, I'll post it up tonight when its done.

 

Hey Jimmy, I did some testing today. Pretty much confirmed there is no "top speed" limiter or restriction on my bike. It ran to the 14,200 limiter in probably 3/4 mile with the 16 tooth front sprocket.







This is obviously all she has with 16/45 gearing and a 14,200 limiter. Based off of my math and what it ran today with 16/45 gears, I think it will go 186.5 mph with stock 17/45 gearing... So how people are getting 190 mph with stock gearing I have no clue... Mathematically its not even possible unless they have a taller tire. I'm running the 190/55/17 that has about 60% life left.(has 3k miles on it). Quite a few people here at the forum claim to have gone 191-192 on gps with stock gearing, not sure how seeing what my bike ran with only -1 on the front but... I can't see a -1 sprocket killing 15-16mph off the top speed.



As far as speedo error, using my Garmin gps (in the pics I posted on page 2), my speedo was reading 70 mph and GPS was 67.5 mph, so 2.5 mph off at 70. When I went to make my top speed run, my Garmin GPS lost signal in that area for some reason, so I had to use my phone's GPS and the Speed Pro app.. I have found this to be pretty accurate but it does have a delayed reading, thats why I kept it on the rev limiter so long so I could make sure the phone gps captured the speed. You'll see this in the video. I can not attest to the total accuracy of the phone gps/speed pro app, but I assume its pretty accurate if you allow it to "catch up". My Garmin GPS definitely tracks faster.



I'm working on the video, I'll post it up tonight when its done.

HP4's have the 200/55/17 tires on them stock. not sure if any of the folks running that speed are HP4 owners or not, but I know the HP4 gets up to at least 180mph


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Test vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRuklCl_RGA&feature=youtu.be

 

Any reason why your short shifting the hell out of her?

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This is my dyno chart, notice how straight the air fuel curve is from 7k on? This bike made the most power at 13.0 afr.. We spent many hours on the dyno playing with different air fuel ratios to see what it wanted... 13.0 was the money. The actual horse power curves always looked the same, only there was MORE power once we dialed it in.

The lumpy air fuel curve down below 6k is due to the throttle position restrictions the ECU has built into... Its hard to tune a moving target.

I started out with Brocks map and made 179, after we tuned it, we ended up here:



And yes, I was a little disappointed. I always heard about all these bikes making 190-195 with Brock pipes and tuning but..... Mine seemed to come up a little short.. However I am running 5w40 BMW oil and pump gas... Not the super thin 0w oil Brock's bikes run.. That is 3-4hp right there. It is what it is..

My point is, get your gearing setup correctly to allow you to run say 195 mph, then make power improvements that will help the bike pull to redline with that gearing.

Personally, Id be leary about reflashing one of these things... If you blow a motor, there will be no warranty coverage... And youre not gonna find one of these engines on ebay for $1k like a busa or GSXR...

 

This was mine

 

Jimmy, I never realized the S bike was geared like that. I think Alan is on to something. I don't recall any of the guys claiming 180+MPH on GPS mentioning their gearing setup. Like you said, you can gear it for the top speed that I'm reaching, but you will only have top end, while I have both. If you decide to change your gearing out to test it I'd like to see what it will do. No worries pal, I will wait for you to catch up at the next interesection

You can always sell the S bike and come back to the Kawasaki family.

BTW, here's my dyno pull....with less power than what you made

 

Both? Lol the zx10 is lacking in midrange. . Hence the big dip in your chart there buddy...... 'both' lol

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While I have not used a Power Commander on this bike, I have had them on other bikes I've owned.

The Brentuning solution is much more involved than just a Power Commander which is really only modifying a few variables to extract as much HP from the bike as it can without really thoroughly remapping the ECU. Being a Bosch ME9 based unit this is far from a simple ECU, so I would be hesitant to half ass it on this.

Meanwhile a real reflash of the stock ECU is actually modifying the basemaps themselves instead of altering signals to the ECU like the piggy backs do.

While peak numbers may not be drastically different, the entire feel of the engine is altered in a positive way by a real tune. Besides, peak numbers are almost meaningless. I don't know about you but I can't remember the last time I saw a motorcycle stay at peak power for longer than a split second each gear...

Once I reflashed my bike it felt like an entirely new bike to me.

Power everywhere with zero hiccups during partial throttle or slowly rolling into it.

Coming from the automotive world myself, I'm used to "real tunes" not piggy back sytems that only modify full throttle mostly and sacrifice drivability, partial throttle, etc.

So to me it's a real no brainer to get a legitmately done reflash instead of a bandaid fix like a piggy back system. Yes that is just my opinion, and no offense is meant - piggy back is still a viable option, just to me it isn't the best option out there.

I know there will be people that disagree with me on the basis of price alone, but just because you can get near the same results for less money doesn't make it preferable and yes I know, just because you spend more doesn't make it better either.

However, in this case - the brentuning reflash just being better makes it better, if that makes sense.

As far as the OP was asking, I have done an indicated 187 on my stock bike and the tach kept climbing. I haven't had a chance to go full out after the flash, but third gear really likes to float now when riding it hard, previously I had to purposely pop the wheel up in third for it to do that.

I will dyno the bike once I get my exhaust installed, but I don't need a dyno to tell me how differently the bike feels already.
I will be takin this bike to a track day coming up as well to get more experience where I can really give it some gas out of corners and experiement with the lower end of the power band.

Take it for what it's worth, just my opinion and personal experience.

 

Just for the record,my bike had a good dyno-tuned map in the pcv.I now have a Bren tune map installed.
I did not expect any big improvements,however with the Bren tune I have gained 3hp everywhere and 3lb/ft torque but,even better,gained 10hp between 8-12k rpm!
I expect to gain a bit more midrange from Bren's latest Custom map which should optimize the fuel even better but cannot get back to the dyno yet.

 

what some of you guys fail to take into account when people talk about going past 186 on stock gearing is that pre '12 bikes came with 17/44 gearing not 17/45 which gives more top end.

if someone mentions our bikes having a speed limiter again, i will kick a hundred baby kittens, THINK OF THE KITTENS!

 

My point about splitting hairs was that a rider will not be able to shift at the same RPM every time, but since we are doing this mathematically I will throw that statement out since we both understand that what we are discussing is the “optimum shift point” and not what we may do in the real world with human error.

Using the Dyno sheet posted earlier in this thread I drew a straight line across from redline to see what rpm the engine could drop down to in order to make as much power as what it was making in the lower gear.

For instance, at 14,200 rpm the blue line is pretty much right on the dot at 180 WHP.

At about 12,200 rpm the engine is also making approximately 180 WHP.

Everything in between has a higher horsepower value.

If you watch the video you posted again, she shifts very close to 14,000 rpm if not at 14,000 rpm for second to third gear change and her RPM’s drop to below 12,000 rpm to about 11,800 rpm which is outside of the window I mentioned above of 12,200 RPM and 14,200 RPM (any RPM outside this ’window’ makes less power as measured by the dyno)

This means she was making more power at the very top of second than then RPM she ended up at in third.

Had she shifted any sooner her rpm’s would drop even further down in RPM’s and be making even less power as you can see on the dyno chart.

On her third to fourth change she once again nearly redlined the bike at 14,000 rpm and wound up almost right at 12,200 rpm which would be the very start of the powerband ‘window.’

Obviously, for the higher gear changes (into 5th and 6th) you would want to shift a littler earlier as the RPM drop for the next gear becomes smaller which you will notice she does.

I realize I said “always better to shift higher” earlier but I was speaking about ¼ mile like I thought we were talking about - where you are going to finish in fourth gear and I stand by that statement as the 2nd – 3rd and 3rd to 4th shift should be done near redline so that after the gear change you are still making near the same power as when you shifted.

Shifting sooner than this will cause you to be in the next gear at a lower rpm than if you held it, resulting in making less power at the start of that gear than had you held it a little longer, not to mention a higher gear does not have as much of a mechanical advantage due to gearing.

 

Generally speaking, most bikes/cars produce the best mph (which indicates that most of the available power is being utilized) shifting at 300-400 rpms passed peak HP... Ofcourse this varies due to power band and transmission gearing... Lower rpm engines will not show the gains in max revving compared to a higher rpm engine... This is particularly true with cars. However on sport bikes with usually high rpm power bands, they almost always run faster with shifting it at max rpms... Even if theoretically you "lose" a couple HP from over revving, after the shift is made, the rpms land higher up in the powerband, closer to peak power. By doing this, your average power through out a pass is actually higher because you are keeping the engine in the top of its powerband longer. On really high strung engines like the S1000rr and ZX10r, this is what you want.

Examples to prove my point:
My 71' vette with a relatively low revving 496 that makes peak power at 5800, always runs the best numbers shifting it at 6000-6100...so 300 rpms passed peak.... Any higher and it slows down.. This car runs 10.50s@127..

My 02 Z06 that makes 900rwhp makes peak power at 6200 and holds it to 6400. This car runs the best numbers shifting at 6600-6700. The wild card here is the torque converter aids in shift recovery...after each shift, my rpms never fall below 5800 because the converter slips to keep the rpms up in the power band... We don't have that luxury with bikes... This car runs 9.20s@151.

My turbo busa makes peak power around 10,400 and always runs the best mph shifting it 11,000 indicated (however the tachs do read about 300 rpms fast on these so really 10,700 shifts)... I now have a hacked ECU and can spin it to 11,300 actual rpms...I haven't raced it with the hacked ECU but I'm sure it will pick up mph, even at the same boost level.

This is all tested stuff, not theories or calculations. I've been drag racing/land speed racing bikes for 15 years and cars longer then that... I've picked up a thing or two through the years..

 

1-2 (13.9k)
2-3 (14k)
3-4 (13.9k)
4-5 (13.5k)
5-6 (13.6k)

You said peak power is between 10k and 13.2k... she obviously goes past that in every gear

And its common practice to set your shift light earlier than than you plan to shift because you said it yourself.. its hard to shift as soon as the light comes on.

I personally shift at 14k or aim to everytime.


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1-2 (13.9k)
2-3 (14k)
3-4 (13.9k)
4-5 (13.5k)
5-6 (13.6k)

You said peak power is between 10k and 13.2k... she obviously goes past that in every gear

And its common practice to set your shift light earlier than than you plan to shift because you said it yourself.. its hard to shift as soon as the light comes on.

I personally shift at 14k or aim to everytime.


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You are incredibly late to this party. Czero has already covered everything you just covered and in a much more useful and knowledgable manner.

I used the video NOT to PROVE MY POINT (as I already stated) but simply point out that she is NOT shifting at redline as was stated by another member. It was not directed at you in any way, shape, or form, so I'm not sure what point you are attempting to make.

Please reread my posts, I NEVER once said that PEAK POWER was between 10k and 13.2k. I WOULD NEVER say that. Peak power, as posted in my dyno chart is 13.2k. Peak torque is 10k. These figures not debatable.

It's already been pointed out that the shift light is an indicator of when to shift but there is human error involved, again, you are late and again. My point was this, her light is set at ~13.25 and she is shifting at ~13.75. If she wanted to shift at 14, it would make sense for her light to come on a bit later.

What we are talking about here is a difference of less than 1000rpm. I shift at 13.2k, Valerie shifts at 13.8k, and you shift at 14k (or try to). If you have some relevant information to post in this thread to support why 14k is better, I am open to it. I welcome it. Czero has taught me something and I truly appreciate his presence in this thread and I hope everyone else on this forum does as well.

Now, here IS THE BASIS for my comment earlier. Peak torque (based on my dyno run) is 10k. The gearing ratio for a 2012 and later bike is as follows.

Gear Ratio (1)
2.65
Gear Ratio (2)
2.09
Gear Ratio (3)
1.73
Gear Ratio (4)
1.5
Gear Ratio (5)
1.36
Gear Ratio (6)
1.26

Thus in order to MAXIMIZE TORQUE you should be shifting at 2.65/2.09 x 10k = 12.6k from 1st to 2nd. 2.09/1.72 x 10k = 12k from 2nd to 3rd. 1.73/1.5 x 10k = 11.5k. 11k. 10.7k.

If you have a legitimate knowledgable and relevant argument to add and show me the errors of my ways, please do so. When to shift

 

I don't know if it matters much but if your shifting as soon as you see the shift light illuminate your shifting to soon.

 

This thread sure got Derailed


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Somewhat.. but we're tryn a get to the bottom of why guys are only getting an indicated 180mph

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You guys are WAY over thinking this stuff...with your math calcs etc etc.... LOL

Trust me, redline shifts or close to it..(yes 13,800 is fine) will get you from point A to point B the fastest. Always shift a bit past peak power, that amount of over rev gives you a head start into the next gear..This is where you gain speed.

Set your shift light at 13,500, that's just an early warning for you...By the time you see the light and start to make the shift, it will land at 13,800-14,000. This is what you want.

Experience trumps math every time...

I'm going to take Aspirin now to help my brain recover from your algebra.

 

I understand your point of view, but an AMA racer was the one who told me the original informatoon and there is math to support it. At this point, im prepared to accept either answer. we have both sides of the argument from an 'experience' scope, so someone provide the PROOF to back it up. Anyone who accepts, "trust me this is the answer" is asking for trouble.

It's not like we are splitting atoms?

I know this thread is derailed but I can't be the only person who wants to know thisn, can I? Besides, the intent behind wanting to know about ECU gains stems from a perceived lack of acceleration/top speed, which this is relevant to.