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Discussion Starter #22
Weight transfer does not care if you brake with rear, or front, or both brakes. Weight transfer is caused by deceleration.
If weight transfer is minimal, then also deceleration is minimal.

If weight transfer does not tend to lift the rear tyre, then deceleration is not maximal.
So when you play with rear brake and make nice rear slides, you are wasting time.
But yeah, it looks very nice.

One big issue might be too soft front springs, then bike will tend to the lift the rear tire in an exaggerated fashion, when deceleration is well below maximum.
I understand. This is where all my street riding experience comes in and little track riding experience. I hope to practice more track riding when my bike comes in.
 

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It’s strange to see the reasoning behind to use and not to use the rear brake. I use to never use it cause my first coach told me not to touch it unless you run off the track. Well watching the pro’s, reading interviews and articles from them, all of them state they use the rear brake. Most are now installing thumb levers to use the rear brake more. I use my rear brake all the time now and find myself going faster with more control. Matthew Shultz recently added a thumb lever to his MotoAmerica bike and dropped significant time at all the tracks they go to. Lorenzo had to have one for his Ducati cause he couldn’t ride it well enough without it. Jonathan Rea just upgraded to a newer brembo one cause he uses his so much and needed more braking force in the rear. If the pro’s use it then it must have a purpose, they wouldn’t do something without purpose.

Now I am not saying everyone should run out and start using it but maybe you should try it and see if it works for you. Not all the pro racers can be wrong.
 

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It’s strange to see the reasoning behind to use and not to use the rear brake. I use to never use it cause my first coach told me not to touch it unless you run off the track. Well watching the pro’s, reading interviews and articles from them, all of them state they use the rear brake. Most are now installing thumb levers to use the rear brake more. I use my rear brake all the time now and find myself going faster with more control. Matthew Shultz recently added a thumb lever to his MotoAmerica bike and dropped significant time at all the tracks they go to. Lorenzo had to have one for his Ducati cause he couldn’t ride it well enough without it. Jonathan Rea just upgraded to a newer brembo one cause he uses his so much and needed more braking force in the rear. If the pro’s use it then it must have a purpose, they wouldn’t do something without purpose.

Now I am not saying everyone should run out and start using it but maybe you should try it and see if it works for you. Not all the pro racers can be wrong.
Technology evolves and guess what, we as end users of that tech must evolve around it.

Like I indicated. We are taught from history. With some technology we can only look back even one year to see what is the 'new' way. The Twist of the Wrist by Keith Code was wrote in a day of that technology on motorcycles, and today yet another book can be wrote with new technology outlined from just as recent as 2015 to 2019. The base principles will always be the foundation, but evolve from those to today.

The laptime is all that is important. We say get from point A to point B as fast and safe as we can. If you are running 1:20 laptimes without the rear brake, and you all the sudden develop a process that works for "YOU" and your laptime is 1:19 you have made a step forward no matter how you got there. More practice will always make more perfect. It has to become a thoughtless reaction with smooth transitions. The memory muscle effect of going faster.

I have always wrote out here that the faster you go, the better you going to have to stop/slow down. All that horsepower needs a harness and control.
 

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It’s strange to see the reasoning behind to use and not to use the rear brake. I use to never use it cause my first coach told me not to touch it unless you run off the track. Well watching the pro’s, reading interviews and articles from them, all of them state they use the rear brake. Most are now installing thumb levers to use the rear brake more. I use my rear brake all the time now and find myself going faster with more control. Matthew Shultz recently added a thumb lever to his MotoAmerica bike and dropped significant time at all the tracks they go to. Lorenzo had to have one for his Ducati cause he couldn’t ride it well enough without it. Jonathan Rea just upgraded to a newer brembo one cause he uses his so much and needed more braking force in the rear. If the pro’s use it then it must have a purpose, they wouldn’t do something without purpose.

Now I am not saying everyone should run out and start using it but maybe you should try it and see if it works for you. Not all the pro racers can be wrong.
So you can be a very fast national top level/ international top level racer, without using rear brake.
And then when you are fighting for those last tenths/hundreds/thousands of seconds, on national/ international top level, you might need rear brake.

If you are braking with front brake, and rear wheel is in the air, you cannot use rear brake.
If you are braking with front brake, and start trail braking, and engine is braking, you cannot use rear brake.
If you are in full lean angle, you cannot use rear brake.

So yes, there is a gap in mid and end section of the trail braking where you can use rear brake a little bit. But do not use it too much, because front brake shifts weight to front tyre and there is less traction available for rear tyre, and engine is braking, so you you have to count that in, and when leaning in you must ease the light rear brake because tyre needs more lateral traction.

Should a track day rider use rear brake while braking, changing gears, using clutch, trail braking, leaning in, body positioning, trying to keep some good line, be relaxed, changing feet positioning, etc...?

If you want to be a very fast track day rider/ very fast racer, it is easyer without rear brake.

If you want to feel like a pro racer, use rear brake.
 

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Never do. The gsxr600 i had for 8 years never changed the pads.

The Beemer I never use it. Dont feel the need.

The track sv650 its already slightly sliding the rear from gearing down so I cant add anymore anyway

Changed the pads end of last season cos they looked like the got so old they were gonna fall out of it. And it was a class winner had the bike before me.

I run one of those barely there rear discs just for scrutiny
 

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Weight transfer does not care if you brake with rear, or front, or both brakes. Weigth transfer is caused by deceleration.
If weigth transfer is minimal, then also deceleration is minimal.
I don't think this is entirely true. When the braking force comes from the front, it will compress the front forks causing the front to dive more than if the rear deceleration came from the rear. A lower front is equivalent to more weight on the front due to the acceleration of gravity vector.
 

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For most trackday riders, it's just too much. The rear brake is tricky to learn, and unless you are doing MotoAmerica times the are other more important things to learn first....
 

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For most trackday riders, it's just too much. The rear brake is tricky to learn, and unless you are doing MotoAmerica times the are other more important things to learn first....
One reason this is very true is the balance. The front does so much of the braking safely. The rear is a finessed learning. You dont go into a track with the thought of learning to use the rear in every corner point of entry. You learn what can work for you to improve lap times and not hurt your lap times with bad concentration on too many things at one time.
 

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I don't think this is entirely true. When the braking force comes from the front, it will compress the front forks causing the front to dive more than if the rear deceleration came from the rear. A lower front is equivalent to more weight on the front due to the acceleration of gravity vector.
Weight transfer does not care if you brake with rear, or front, or both brakes, or if front end is compressed or not (google telelever).
Weight transfer is caused by deceleration.

Another thing is brake force vs front dive.
If you use rear brake, front will dive only because of weight transfer.
If you use front brake, because of caster angle (a part of) brake force will also compress front forks (that is why telelever was created.)
In both cases weight transfer is the same, if deceleration is the same.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
I admit I misunderstood weight transfer when I spoke of it in this post.
I guess me using the rear brake in conjunction is somewhat of a reflex that I developed over the years. I will continue to use them during slow street riding and will practice not using them on the twisties and whenever I make it to the track. My girlfriend got me a weekend track day gift certificate so as long as I get my bike and guaranteed at least one weekend this year
 
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