BMW S1000RR Forum banner

141 - 160 of 243 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
231 Posts
I'm unable to commit to particular days at the moment, my transportation to the track is currently dependent upon a friend until I can purchase a suitable tow vehicle next year.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,592 Posts
I'm unable to commit to particular days at the moment, my transportation to the track is currently dependent upon a friend until I can purchase a suitable tow vehicle next year.
Ok let me take a stab at this in a bit more technical nature.

First let's not worry about the bike's lean angle, when you enter a turn do you use any visual or non visual reference points?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
231 Posts
Ok let me take a stab at this in a bit more technical nature.

First let's not worry about the bike's lean angle, when you enter a turn do you use any visual or non visual reference points?
Visual for all;
Braking marker
Turn in marker
Apex point
Exit point

Exit is my least comfortable because I don't know my lean angle (lack of a dial gauge) and how much power I can actually feed into the bike at any one point.

Braking and turn in varies because I don't know what my pre-apex lean angle is from lap to lap (lack of a dial gauge).

Apex ends up being an on the fly adjustment or abandoned if I'm not comfortable with how much trail braking I need to do (no understanding of front end tire feel).
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
420 Posts
Visual for all;
Braking marker
Turn in marker
Apex point
Exit point

Exit is my least comfortable because I don't know my lean angle (lack of a dial gauge) and how much power I can actually feed into the bike at any one point.

Braking and turn in varies because I don't know what my pre-apex lean angle is from lap to lap (lack of a dial gauge).

Apex ends up being an on the fly adjustment or abandoned if I'm not comfortable with how much trail braking I need to do (no understanding of front end tire feel).
Sounds like you need to start working on a few things before even considering corner speed. One thing at a time as they all add up. I suggest doing class room sessions with providers that offer them and getting one on one sessions with provider instructors. Getting a bunch of feedback from different people is just going make things confusing TBH.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,592 Posts
Sounds like you need to start working on a few things before even considering corner speed. One thing at a time as they all add up. I suggest doing class room sessions with providers that offer them and getting one on one sessions with provider instructors. Getting a bunch of feedback from different people is just going make things confusing TBH.
You know what this means Bobby.... You have to be here on Oct 6-7. >:)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,583 Posts
Visual for all;
Braking marker
Turn in marker
Apex point
Exit point

Exit is my least comfortable because I don't know my lean angle (lack of a dial gauge) and how much power I can actually feed into the bike at any one point.
But this is why I have bmw s1000rr

I can go WFO as soon as apex and it sorts it self out...feed in all the power... or maybe just 50% until you are comfortable... if you have rck3 I could make you a 50% throttle map
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
231 Posts
And we're back to square one, great. Spending a bunch of time in a classroom going over the basics is nice and all, it's what I did at the 2 day school this year.

The only point in a corner that remains a fixed constant is your exit point (once you've determined it), everything else shifts depending on the capabilities of the rider and the bike. If I enter the same corner at a different, inconsistent, and unknown lean angle each time (between 30-45 degrees), how do I make progress? Explain that to me. I've got to go to the brakes and stay on them for a different amount of time, I start picking the bike up when I don't need to, I get on the gas at a different point, etc, etc, etc.

I'm plateau'd in corner entry/exit because of a physical body limitation that none of you seem to actually grasp or have advanced beyond because it was never a limitation in the first place and you could touch down as a safe reference marker and then work on feel from there. If I'm only touching down at 55+ degrees, how safe am I riding? That's no margin for error at all and it's absolutely terrifying. I'm not keen on letting the electronics sort out failures in fundamentals for me either.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
420 Posts
And we're back to square one, great. Spending a bunch of time in a classroom going over the basics is nice and all, it's what I did at the 2 day school this year.

The only point in a corner that remains a fixed constant is your exit point (once you've determined it), everything else shifts depending on the capabilities of the rider and the bike. If I enter the same corner at a different, inconsistent, and unknown lean angle each time (between 30-45 degrees), how do I make progress? Explain that to me. I've got to go to the brakes and stay on them for a different amount of time, I start picking the bike up when I don't need to, I get on the gas at a different point, etc, etc, etc.

I'm plateau'd in corner entry/exit because of a physical body limitation that none of you seem to actually grasp or have advanced beyond because it was never a limitation in the first place and you could touch down as a safe reference marker and then work on feel from there. If I'm only touching down at 55+ degrees, how safe am I riding? That's no margin for error at all and it's absolutely terrifying. I'm not keen on letting the electronics sort out failures in fundamentals for me either.

You asked "If I enter the same corner at a different, inconsistent, and unknown lean angle each time (between 30-45 degrees), how do I make progress?". Well, if you're trying the the same turn different ways each time without a goal then yeah, you're not gonna learn anything from that turn. I've done the same 2-day classes you've done, and unless they teach it differently, there's one thing that always pops up when you're learning to go fast around a turn—focus on one thing about turning at one turn and only one turn. Forget using your knee, because it sounds like corner entry is the first problem you're having—not how far leaned over you are—especially considering your running race tires (assuming they're at the right pressures and hot).

I know I'm just one of so many voices here telling you what to do and what not to do, but if anything, focus on one thing at a time.

BTW, you say have a limitation that's stopping you from gaining experience and leaning the bike over—I don't think its your physical limitation because I've seen people with extreme back issues, missing limbs, unusable feet do the same thing you feel you can't do. A large portion of (track) riding is done mentally. If your bike is properly set up (including tires), and you're not trying to set lap records the only thing to worry about is making the turn as effective as possible and make no sudden inputs.

Its takes time to learn to do what, when you think about it, is amazingly hard to do—traveling at a high rate of speed on two contact points the size of credit cards without any kind of structure to contain you with the environment pushing back at you. Take the time to learn each thing you need. DON"T GIVE UP! And wen it stops being fun, its harder to learn—I realized that when I stopped trying to go as fast as possible while trying to learn some things and just enjoy riding at a pace where I can think things thru, I learn a whole hell of a lot more. DOn't worry about people going faster than you—there's always someone faster.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
231 Posts
You asked "If I enter the same corner at a different, inconsistent, and unknown lean angle each time (between 30-45 degrees), how do I make progress?". Well, if you're trying the the same turn different ways each time without a goal then yeah, you're not gonna learn anything from that turn. I've done the same 2-day classes you've done, and unless they teach it differently, there's one thing that always pops up when you're learning to go fast around a turn—focus on one thing about turning at one turn and only one turn. Forget using your knee, because it sounds like corner entry is the first problem you're having—not how far leaned over you are—especially considering your running race tires (assuming they're at the right pressures and hot).
This doesn't help, you understand that right? People bang on and on about reference points. So it's ok to go into a corner with a bunch of reference points (braking, turn in, slowest point, track curbing apex, throttle pick up point (which doesn't currently work for me because if I'm only actually over 30 degrees I should be able to go wide open, but I don't know that I'm only at 30 degrees instead of 50), exit point) except for how far leaned over you are and consequently how much corner speed you can actually carry and how much throttle you can open up.

Awesome, eye opening stuff.

Here's the best I can do for my riding; https://youtu.be/yu1knSq7whU?t=203 I'm the speck in the rear that will pass her out of T8 and then disappear from her front view into T14. I don't think I ever touched knee during any of those turns. I feel completely unsafe doing what I'm doing.

I'm mad/frustrated, I haven't come away from a track day recently where I wasn't angry for about a week at the lack of progress solely due to a complete lack of repeatable, reliable lean angle reference.

I'm done being angry here in public, I'll tie this off.

You guys win whatever this was.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,583 Posts
Here's the best I can do for my riding; https://youtu.be/yu1knSq7whU?t=203 I'm the speck in the rear that will pass her out of T8 and then disappear from her front view into T14. I don't think I ever touched knee during any of those turns. I feel completely unsafe doing what I'm doing.
you look good from that, what makes you feel unsafe?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,583 Posts
Don’t worry about lean angle

Lean angle = speed X placement

Worry about placement

Placement = lean angle / speed

I have a similar problem except I worry about speed

Speed = placement / lean angle

I need to worry about placement

Placement is the independent variable
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,592 Posts
...Here's the best I can do for my riding; https://youtu.be/yu1knSq7whU?t=203 I'm the speck in the rear that will pass her out of T8 and then disappear from her front view into T14. I don't think I ever touched knee during any of those turns. I feel completely unsafe doing what I'm doing...
Didn't seem to be unsafe but just an observation and may contribute, it seems like you are flicking the bike into the turn too quickly, instead of being smooth.

Compare your video to smash's video, you can see the rider has a smoother turn in.

https://youtu.be/i-lg4XIkBe4?t=1m46s
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
420 Posts
Considering Aug 18&19 with z2 Thill East for testing and getting my moto-legs back. Dependency on if I get my subframe by then or if I get the OEM subframe straightened.

Def'ly aiming for Aug 25&26 with PTT Thill East with a few friends.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
925 Posts
I was there. Black and red RR with a blue and white suit in the A group. Had a good time set a new PB despite the weather being almost 100. 2.02 flat
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
420 Posts
Thill days this month

Bike's back with me and testing on RWR was a success for the most part.

Looking to do z2's Aug 18-19 Thill East if anyone else wants to go. Anyone going let me know.

I'm 95% sure I'm going to PTT Aug 25-26 Thill East with a few people.
 
141 - 160 of 243 Posts
Top