[Slaki]

Hi guys. I have an issue with RCK2 setup. I am still learning, so please be gentle. I can tell you the following:

Full track bike, 2013 s1000rr.
On track this weekend, I was racing and noticed that when I get on the gas, the bike wont give me any acceleration until I pick the bike up.

I have noticed that it is in 2nd gear in slick mode between 45 - 55 degrees of bank at around 7500 - 9500 rpm. I would say at about 40 - 60 % of throttle position. Noticed that on the data logging.

I can share screenshots of RCK setup as well as data logging, but not sure which screen shots you would need to see. Please let me know so that I can upload them for you to see if you can maybe help me to make changes for the bike to allow more power in that range.

 

[Slaki]

Maybe this will help?

Pink is bank angle
Green is RPM
Orange is grip position
Blue is Throttle.

 

[Slaki]

Grip level is at 1.450
Reduction pre control all at 100
Lean angle DTC is set at 40 deg.

 

[wfo439]

@speedfinn should be able to help. Shoot him a pm if he doesn't reply.

 

[speedfinn]

Maybe this will help?

Pink is bank angle
Green is RPM
Orange is grip position
Blue is Throttle.

You should view:

RPM
V_Front
V_Rear
Re_dtc_tot
Bank_dtc
Throttle
Grip_pos
Vehicle_Mode
DTC_SlipOffset_Step
Gear
V_GPS
A_Lon_GPS
Slip

Then you can see what you are doing, what DTC is doing, and what bike is doing.

Press the double arrow right below "Measuring values" to see only active graph values on the list.

And zoom the "Moving" view so that you see also a bit before you touch the throttle and a bit after you turn off the throttle.

 

[speedfinn]

You can also go to C:/BMW_HP_RaceData -folder and choose a session -folder, and zip it and uploadit somewhere and share the address via PM.
And I can do some data analysing if you want.

 

[Slaki]

You should view:

RPM
V_Front
V_Rear
Re_dtc_tot
Bank_dtc
Throttle
Grip_pos
Vehicle_Mode
DTC_SlipOffset_Step
Gear
V_GPS
A_Lon_GPS
Slip

Then you can see what you are doing, what DTC is doing, and what bike is doing.

Press the double arrow right below "Measuring values" to see only active graph values on the list.

And zoom the "Moving" view so that you see also a bit before you touch the throttle and a bit after you turn off the throttle.

Ok, so I have loaded all which you said I should load, except for "DTC_SlipOffset_Step" and "Vehicle_Mode" as I could not find them on the drop down list. Could you also please tell me where to find the double arrows? Was looking for "measuring values", but no luck.

Is there a user guide for this which I could study?

 

[PeterRS]

Ok, so I have loaded all which you said I should load, except for "DTC_SlipOffset_Step" and "Vehicle_Mode" as I could not find them on the drop down list. Could you also please tell me where to find the double arrows? Was looking for "measuring values", but no luck.

Is there a user guide for this which I could study?

These channels are for the HP4 and 2015 s1000rr.

The DTC_SlipOffset_Step indicates where your DTC is set to, ranging from -7 to +7. The 2013 S1000RR does not have this feature.

Vehicle_mode shows which mode you had selected, rain sport race slick etc.

 

[speedfinn]

These channels are for the HP4 and 2015 s1000rr.

The DTC_SlipOffset_Step indicates where your DTC is set to, ranging from -7 to +7. The 2013 S1000RR does not have this feature.

Vehicle_mode shows which mode you had selected, rain sport race slick etc.

And Vehicle_mode is also available if 2009- ecu has been flashed with RCK2.

 

[speedfinn]

Ok, so I have loaded all which you said I should load, except for "DTC_SlipOffset_Step" and "Vehicle_Mode" as I could not find them on the drop down list. Could you also please tell me where to find the double arrows? Was looking for "measuring values", but no luck.

Is there a user guide for this which I could study?

Double arrows: http://racedac.com/s1000rr/MeasuringValuesDoubleArrow.png
User guide: http://racedac.com/s1000rr/Help.png
Also this might help a little: https://www.s1000rrforum.com/forum/...gger-instruction-resources-3.html#post2274970

 

[speedfinn]

Lets add also Yaw-rate and course to data, because it seems that this is more riders fault than a RCK/DTC setting issue.

I would say the "only" problem is too early apex and/or too early throttle opening, in "slow" corners. Suprise suprise, two of the most usual suspects.

(btw, smash, what did i tell you about which is more important, slow or fast corners...)

For example:

You are in full lean angle (54.4...54.1 degrees), still very much turning the bike (Yaw-rate 52...40 degrees per sec), and you start opening throttle (0...42%).

You reach about "max" longitudinal acceleration (note the lean angle) and calculated Slip rises to 12.2%, and DTC reacts.

DTC thinks that you request too much lateral (max lean angle & max yaw-rate) and longitudinal (throttle/torque) grip at the same time.

DTC decreases torque from requesteted "100%" to "94.5%". Mainly by retarding ignition, and also closing throttle valves, but only about 1%. So, less longitudinal grip needed, more lateral grip available to turn the bike. DTC is happy.

0.47 sec later, Yaw-rate has dropped to 25 deg/s, lean angle to 49 deg, slip to 9%, and that is good enough for DTC. Less lateral grip needed (less lean angle), and more (torque) logitudinal grip can be used.
So, DTC relaxes and starts to return torque to "100%".

And from the point you touch the throttle, bike turns 109 degrees on to the "straight". So your bike is pointing straight out from the track, and you are asking more with throttle...


But, if you are really sure, that you have unused grip available at rear tyre, and DTC is just too tender, go ahead and modify your SlipCorr-map, and allow just a bit more slip when speed is 50...80 kmh and lean angle 55...50...45 deg. And be careful, because speed is low (2nd gear), which means that available relative torque is high. And lean angle is high, so the margin is very narrow.

You could also totally remodify the table, because your maximum speed at those lean angles is not 250 kmh. For example 40-60-80-100-120-140-160 would suit you better at least on that track. If you look at the current map, you see that values in rows 170-200-250 are about the same.
And if you do not use DTC <40 deg, then there is no use to have the column 30 deg in the map. 40-44-48-52-56-60.
So one column and three rows in your current map are useless.

If you want, send me the .bmwrc -file where you have your current settings, and I can calculate new values for you. New map will have identical functionality compaired to your current map, but the row and column values will be different.

 

[speedfinn]

If you view your current SlipCorr-map in a simplified graphical view, you will notice that it is a bit incoherent/discontinous and illogical.
On the left side is your map, and on the right side is a default RCK1 map.
Default RCK1-map is purely conservative; it's only purpose is to keep the bike 100% stabile in any lean angle and speed. It does not allow any slipping in any case. So that is why it has some quirks.
But you should notice the coherency/continuity and logicality of the default map.

What is the history of your current SlipCorr-Map?
From where is it from?
Who has made it/ edited it?
And why is all values @60kmh almost zero?

 

[speedfinn]

@Slaki any comments...?

 

[Slaki]

Wow, Mind blown! How the hell do I go about in gaining this experience and knowledge. Like I said, I am very new to this and would love to learn. Hats off to you @speedfinn !!

I do apologize for not getting back to you, was a bit busy the last couple of days.


Ok, so to answer your questions:

First of all, I am not disputing what you are saying at all. Chances that it might be rider error, is a big possibility, but would like to ask the following before I confirm that.
In the RCK you are able to set tyre diameters should you start using a different profile tyre right? Standard the ECU is set up for a 190/55/17 rear tyre and a 120/70/17 front tyre? If I change the profile of my tyre and not change those settings, would it make a difference? Reason for asking is that the series I race in, you are forced to use Bridgestones which are the VO2's with a profile of 120/60/17 and 200/65/17. My ECU does not allow me to change the tyre size settings for to compensate for the tyre change. I would guess that I actually have more grip than what the ECU thinks?

After you explained this, I agree with you that if I set it up as " For example 40-60-80-100-120-140-160 would suit you better at least on that track. If you look at the current map, you see that values in rows 170-200-250 are about the same.
And if you do not use DTC <40 deg, then there is no use to have the column 30 deg in the map. 40-44-48-52-56-60.
So one column and three rows in your current map are useless." I would love if you could work your magic and set a base map up for me to try and start modifying from there?

"What is the history of your current SlipCorr-Map?
From where is it from?
Who has made it/ edited it?
And why is all values @60kmh almost zero?"

Here where I am located, there is none to zero support when it comes to this. There are no tuners available to assist you with this. All racers has moved away from purchasing BMW's due to this fact. The one team that races the BM, has a mechanic / tuner who flew to Europe to learn how the RCK works and he is the only one who basically knows. Obviously they are a competitor, so you will never get all the info needed when you need setup advise, hence me approaching you guys.

The map was basically set up by him in about 5 minutes, just to get me started. They also using RCK 3, so would rather try and see if I can find someone like you who uses the same RCK setup and bike as what I am working with.

I will email the map to you later today. Thanx again for the help!

 

[speedfinn]

In the RCK you are able to set tyre diameters should you start using a different profile tyre right? Standard the ECU is set up for a 190/55/17 rear tyre and a 120/70/17 front tyre? If I change the profile of my tyre and not change those settings, would it make a difference? Reason for asking is that the series I race in, you are forced to use Bridgestones which are the VO2's with a profile of 120/60/17 and 200/65/17. My ECU does not allow me to change the tyre size settings for to compensate for the tyre change. I would guess that I actually have more grip than what the ECU thinks?

Just a quick question (or two):
You have RCK2 ECU but you can not modify tyre radius settings...?
Or, you have stock ecu, and you are asking if you should get a RCK/2/3 ecu..?

The only way to measure the real tyre radius is with datalogger.

Tyre profile numbers does not directly tell you what is the actual size of the tyre profile. Also the tyre profile changes when leaning in if you compaire different models. And rider weight and body position/weight distribution, tyre pressures and tyre wear has some influence.
So, yes, you might have less or more grip available, if you are using stock ECU with stock settings and you are using different tyres.

Related to tyre radiuses, as far as I know, at least the early models, stock ecu has tyre radius adaptation functionality. When you are riding upright, with constant speed, ECU compaires front and rear wheel speed and will calculate a correction factor for tyre radius. But then there are still those default SlipCorr and torque -maps which has a huge impact on DTC behaviour.

And also, stock ecu DTC settings are purely conservative. It does not matter if you have the slick plug etc, (stock ecu) DTC will reduce torque quite much in "any" lean angle.

So, for a fast race rider, who wants to controll rear slip with throttle twist grip, the only option is to have a RCK/RCK2/RCK3 enabled ECU, and modified/custom DTC maps which lets him to do what he wants.

 

[Slaki]

The screenshots in post number 3 is from my RCK 2 screen, so yes I do have the software on my bike, but not all the functions are available for some reason. I cant access the tyre radius option, nor can I access the launch control settings. When I email you the file, you will see what I am referring to. Apparently there is something else I need to buy for the ECU to access these options??

So I can set all the parameters, eg Injection, Ignition, DTC, ABS, Shift assist, Pit lane, Fault memory, Adaption, but not L-control or the tyre size setup screen... (Attached a screenshot of what I do not have)

So my question now is if I will be able to get a decent setup without it or should I look at purchasing this part first?

 

[speedfinn]

The screenshots in post number 3 is from my RCK 2 screen, so yes I do have the software on my bike, but not all the functions are available for some reason. I cant access the tyre radius option, nor can I access the launch control settings. When I email you the file, you will see what I am referring to. Apparently there is something else I need to buy for the ECU to access these options??

So I can set all the parameters, eg Injection, Ignition, DTC, ABS, Shift assist, Pit lane, Fault memory, Adaption, but not L-control or the tyre size setup screen...

Maybe @BMW_388 can help with this one?
Why those tyre radius settings are inactive in slakis setting file?

 

[speedfinn]

So my question now is if I will be able to get a decent setup without it or should I look at purchasing this part first?

The data logger file you sent me: Front wheel speed vs Rear wheel speed -difference is close to zero. So what ever tyres you were using at that time; you can get a decent setup without any problems with those tyres.

 

[BMW_388]

Maybe @BMW_388 can help with this one?
Why those tyre radius settings are inactive in slakis setting file?

In order to have Tire Radius function, you have to have HP Power Kit enable with RCK2 enable.

I will send OP PM on enable options.

 

[speedfinn]

In order to have Tire Radius function, you have to have HP Power Kit enable with RCK2 enable.

OP has Injection and Ignition settings available in the settings file. I thought those are only available if ecu is power kit enabled?