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Discussion Starter #1
It always amazes me on the people that seek a tuned ECU based on just a number. Sales support is great getting the product, but what about what goes into it, and the ATS ( After The Sales ) results….
What goes into a performance dyno tune?
Where are the OEM factories in performance today?

Lets start with the first part of > What is a Dyno Tune? Simply put, a dyno tune is making adjustments to your bike's ignition, fuel, and air supply to achieve the most possible horse power and torque while maintaining optimal air fuel ratio. To do this the use of state of the art dynamo-meter (dyno) equipment is needed. Controlled temperature and even humidity is best. What is really needed is a dyno cell. I cannot even begin to copy and paste all the important points of this article on this website :
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2010/08/dynos-and-test-stands-profit-center-or-business-black-hole/
A dyno session is not one or two times on the dyno and expect to get maximum performance, and the sad reality is that once you leave the dyno room at XX temp and humidity into the real world of XX temp and humidity, all that perfect work is changed in real world performance. However it should stay close in the least.

Then there is the cookie cutter ECU tune. No matter how you look at it, the OEM BMW ECU tune from the factory is a cookie cutter tune. There is an ECE tune for European builds and there is USA tune for North American builds. We expect BMW to have done some home work in that a product sold in Washington is going to work the same as the product sold in Florida. That is one example of an OEM ECU. Now we have cookie cutter tunes from aftermarket companies. When you call me for performance advice on getting the most out of your K46 or K67, I don’t ask you what state are you in. I provide something that has hundreds upon hundreds of hours of testing already in what is supposed to be the best it can be for not only 50 USA states, but Canada too. That’s a lot of temp change, humidity, altitude…. And the list of parameters really goes on.

Then the next question of : Where are the OEM factories in performance today?
Really guys? Do you think that BMW, Yamaha, Suzuki, Ducati are hiding 10HP in the ECU by itself today? No, they have to compete with each other for the horse power and torque numbers to sell a product. However, the product must first be SAFE, meet government regulations, and last the warranty period so that they ( the OEM”s) do not have to replace hard parts.. like engines. BMW is bragging and banking on the K67 released at 205HP USA and 207HP Europe. Respective dyno numbers on the USA so far show from 190HP to 204HP at the rear tire. This is on a stock ECU. The 10-14HP difference of course comes down to the dyno it was tested on, and the many many variables that go into a ‘wheel dyno’ test.

You should really look at who you want to work with based on AFTER THE SALE support. Anyone can ask you to go to a website and fill out a few questions based on what fuel you run, what air filter you have, what exhaust system you have… then like magic you have a work order to print out and put in the box to ship the ECU, or the expectation that a handheld device will arrive ready to plug and load. Ok great, you have this magic tune in the ECU and it is testing time for you with your seat of the pants dyno. The butt dyno. The first thing you are going to hope for is that a near $800 investment puts an extra smile on your face. Well, that is really not that hard to expect to happen because we have buyers remorse that is just too hard to deal with later, so we always hit the positive buttons in our minds and brag the numbers posted on the website said 200HP at the tire and I must have 200HP at the tire because I paid $800 for those extra ponies. Now can you use those extra ponies? Not most people that actually get tuned up ECU’s, but we like to try and have fun.
To start with real road racing is based on management of what is there to its fullest potential and understanding how that management works for you and not against you. There is really a book on how to ride and understand the motorcycle. To my amazement books were wrote in the 1980’s by a guy I actually was at the race track with. Keith Code. Google up some Twist of the wrist volume 1 and Twist of the wrist Volume 2.
Now you are going to find out if your ‘tuner’ guy really hit the mark with this ECU tune you just flashed into your ECU. All the greatest of electronic aids have to be accounted for and proven they are still working together. Is your ‘tuner’ guy a dig racer, drag racer, street only stunt racer? Well I hope that is what you intended to do with your purchased application of tune. Did you call them for after the sale support and they actually answer the phone with some valid technical support?
There are good tuner people like me, which actually answers the phone still 11am to 11pm with advice and performance recommendations. I design my webpage around good valid tested information especially on BMW engineered code for the K46 and K67 S1000RR. I hope I can help you in your future needs, and @MotoMillion can help you with great sales.
 

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There's many reasons to want a tune, and you're absolutely right about people not being happy with what they got but putting on a brave face and lying about how great it is. Modern bikes are so complicated that often an "improvement" in one area ends up hindering some other aspect of performance in one or more other areas. So the buyer should fully understand what they are getting before they push the "buy" button.
I've always thought that weight reduction makes more sense than a few more horses at the top end, I guess that's why my bikes have carbon wheels. Easy to install, even easier to resell when the time comes.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
So I'm taking it as you already seen where this is going and why it was even posted.

Basically it is the foundation of 'cookie cutter' ECU tunes to discuss if you have an opinion or real world result. What is claimed as Dyno Tune results on alot of websites are charts with crayon style drawn graphs, and then wording that reads Dyno tested results. Then in the real world either engines blow up and the customer is told it was XYZ of their additional modifications that were not tested with the cookie cutter tune.

BMW has spent not hundreds, but thousands of hours among many good engineers making a tune that works, and does not blow up engines. That is North American ( USA ) and European ( ECE ) designation. Where BMW really excel'ed in performance with the K46 was the WSBK STK1000 class and the IDM racing series. RCK3 / HP Power Kit was released to race teams, and then the general public via the BMW HP Performance dealer divisions. AfterMarket tuners popped up with available performance tuned ECU where this code was stripped from the race enabled ECU's and attempted to be graphed ( cut and pasted ) to base S1000RR code. When that did not work too well then the DAMOS files were used to attempt to hex editing the base S1000RR code with the race enabled code that BMW spent the thousands of dollars producing.

The K67 is falling short of the word upgrades by BMW Motorrad right now that are reasonable priced. The FIM WSBK RCK PRO upgrade is hardly cheap in price, and you give up so much in street use comfort. At $8000 with all you really need to get the system from Alpha Germany, you give up cruise control, heated grips, DDC suspension, a key to actually secure the bike in a parking garage. Now, if you are race track 100% only, then fine, these are the things you dont need anyway. ///M RCK and ///M Power Kit are fully defined in ISTA, there is just no enable codes released still to anyone that I can fine. These codes at least would give you the fully tested and performance from BMW Motorrad and keep cruise control, heated grips, DDC suspension, a key to actually secure the bike in a parking garage.

DimSport, AlienTech, EVC and a few others attempt to provide a base map structure of tables they can identify for these Bosch ECU's. When you are only seeing 55 tables out of 500, there is a problem with what you are trying to really accomplish in a tune. DimSport calls them setting files. Does DimSport have it completely right on the tables exact address in the code? I see too many updates in the background every day for this program/files and really makes me wonder.

A tuner that really trys to find the best of the best performance tune from BMW Engineers and pass that along in its 100% format so that there are no guess'es, there are no inflated dyno crayon charts to guess at ... this is the guy really trying to help in the community and you have confidence your engine is going to survive its additional performance measures, and best, it is recommended by certain BMW dealers and engineers in the USA because they cannot offer such a modification.
 

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And if someone starts the sh!ttalking in this thread I will kill it totally and completely. And I will use my definition, not yours. Keep it civil.
So I'm taking it as you already seen where this is going and why it was even posted.
There are hundreds of thousands of companies that coexist, fighting for a larger market share and hoping to be become the 'standard' by which all other competing products in a given field are measured. Yet, two tuners can't seem to exist in peace. I cannot possibly be the only one here wondering why.

Im not looking to trigger an argument, I'm not looking for names, if the mods see reason to delete this post, so be it. Yet those who frequent this forum are aware of whom I speak, and quite frankly, aware of the childish tension between them. At this point, I could care less what their respective product capabilities might be, what their customer support looks like, or where the drama even started. Im looking to understand why two professional vendors simply cannot seem to coexist peacefully. I cant speak for everyone, but this type of garbage is what drives consumers like myself away from either of your products. Publicly address your differences clearly and concisely for potential clients to form their own opinions, rather than throwing passive aggressive shade, and move on.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
In my opinion this a valid conversation. I guess other forums can have a civil conversation about the differences and thoughts of cookie cutter ECU tunes vs something that a factory developed for the educated consumer that wants to learn about tuning his / her own ECU parameters. Then there is code that is developed by the manufacture for RACE TRACK use only and some people are lucky enough to purchased that and repackage it in a stock ECU.

Just examples of other forums having a 'good' conversation vs people coming into this thread posting ... oh my gosh.. what's this thread .. if you actually search google for cookie cutter ECU tune > or https://www.google.com/search?q=cookie+cutter+ecu+tune you will see people like them for convenience, others will plan and simple say there is no tune that can be sold USA/Canada wide that works 100% use at your own risk.

https://forums.swedespeed.com/showthread.php?226077-Cookie-Cutter-Tune-vs-Dyno-Tune

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/358048-DIY-flashing-Tuning-for-your-Motronic
 

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I think it's fair to be civil and share thoughts on different tuners. But at the end talk is cheap. An independent unbiased rider need to test both flashes side by side on a dyno, street and track (track would have to wait till April when season starts). Without functional real world tests it would be all speculation.

Happy to test when I get my RR in Q1.
 

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Im not questioning the validity of this topic, I question the comments and debates that have led up to this thread. If your desire is to keep this focused on cookie cutter tunes, then perhaps my comment was out of line, and another thread should be created. Im simply trying to consolidate for future searches, because anyone who has looked into your products or your competition, has likely been faced with an experience similar to my own. A barrage of comments undercutting the quality, safety, and integrity of each others products. Im simply looking to address why both of you have such fundamentally different perspectives on the way to properly tune the K67. Yes, its a complex machine, but at the end of the day its just another bike, not quantum mechanics.
 

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Open discussions on the topic are great. But calling the other guy wrong, ignorant, stupid, whatever is not really contributing anything. That's why threads get shut down. There really are different ways to accomplish the same (to the end user anyway) objective. Of course, your mileage and riding experience may vary.
 

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This is by no means an attack towards anyone or anything, just my opinion. For god sake you both are way smarter than myself when it comes to the inter working of a motorcycle, I'm just an avid rider.I myself reached out to both for tuning options. An both were very respectful and responsive with that said after further searching I decided to go with Bren. I noticed 650ib still have the cold start issue even after getting the flash/tune provided by 388. Maybe it's worked out now, not sure maybe you could elaborate 388? Maybe you've already addressed it, sorry if so I've missed that please feel free to point me in the direction I can find the info.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
This is by no means an attack towards anyone or anything, just my opinion. For god sake you both are way smarter than myself when it comes to the inter working of a motorcycle, I'm just an avid rider.I myself reached out to both for tuning options. An both were very respectful and responsive with that said after further searching I decided to go with Bren. I noticed 650ib still have the cold start issue even after getting the flash/tune provided by 388. Maybe it's worked out now, not sure maybe you could elaborate 388? Maybe you've already addressed it, sorry if so I've missed that please feel free to point me in the direction I can find the info.
Not exactly my idea the place to address that old issue of 650IB .. see here >>> https://www.s1000rrforum.com/forum/2351806-post250.html

The bottom line and how I explain it anyone that takes the time to call me about it is simple. IF your K67 from the factory has an idle or cold start issue, there is a hardware problem. BMW cannot pin point the problem and they say it is not the ECU coding. BandAids? Yes, you can go into the code for someone that is complaining that they have the idle issue and special tune / change that ECU code, but you are just overcoming a hardware issue with fueling.

The reason I have confidence in what is out there is that in 42 total XWORKS applications running and of that in DFW there are 4 2020 M's with XWORKS. 3 are 100% fine on startup and idle as low as 40 Degrees testing. One however is really bad. I have told him to bring me the bike and I will figure it out. He has not however brought me the bike. He had the issue at 50 miles stock OEM code. He had the issue at 400 miles. He still has the issue on code that should be fine but since there is a hardware issue, it is not fine. The problem is not too bad at temps above 75 degrees cold start up.
 

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Since I don't have my bike yet, I am still in the decision phase. I like the fact that BMW_388 actually puts his to test on the track, and will likely be the best source for continued upgrades focused on track performance. What is missing is a list of exactly what the Xworks flash does. I am sure all options eliminate the US restricted power, but I am interested in things like optimized ignition timing, and maps for various fuels, and ability to eliminate intake valve, etc... Do you have a detailed list on exactly what is included in XWORKS flash to make comparisons?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Since I don't have my bike yet, I am still in the decision phase. I like the fact that BMW_388 actually puts his to test on the track, and will likely be the best source for continued upgrades focused on track performance. What is missing is a list of exactly what the Xworks flash does. I am sure all options eliminate the US restricted power, but I am interested in things like optimized ignition timing, and maps for various fuels, and ability to eliminate intake valve, etc... Do you have a detailed list on exactly what is included in XWORKS flash to make comparisons?
I have a very poorly laid out technical webpage you can view with some updated information. Check out @MotoMillion for sales. Use XWORKS code for 10% discount.

When you get the time to call me I will explain the exact details on this code origin. Its very BMW approved for the track.

https://www.bmwhp.com/2020-m-sport-bmw-s1000rr-2020-track-sport-bmw-s1000rr/
 

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So do you have a dyno? What kind? What AFR monitor do you use? What are you doing for individual cylinder monitoring?
My $.0000002. I'm betting NOBODY here, or elsewhere, has a true dynamometer. What people HAVE is actually a Dynojet brand (or other) accelerometer, based on increasing the RPM of a known mass.

The FACTORIES, however, generally DO have true dynamometers, and their tuning would be based on that mostly.

Symantics, I know, but I think it's an important point to clarify. I really wish the true term was never bastardized like that and used generically. There is a HUGE difference in how they work and what they can do for a tuner.

Carry on...
 

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I'm fine with so-called cookie-cutter ECU tunes. I assume what Brentuning, XWorks, etc. do is to perform a custom dyno-assisted iterative tune on several common configurations of a bike model - stock, full exhaust system, MR12, etc. - capture the result in a map and then replicate that to hundreds of customers with the same/similar config. While not as precise as a custom dyno tuned to the eccentricities of your particular bike, at your altitude, specific exhaust and filter, it's normally good enough, and far cheaper and easier. This is especially true with the 2020 RR where most of the benefit comes from simply eliminating the throttle map limits, the exhaust valve opening, and making the fuel mixture a bit richer in places. My 2020 RR is dramatically better after the flash.
 
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