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I didn't notice the thread split intime, moving my last response to speedfinn here:

My latest in youtube:
Watched most of it and subscribed, thanks for sharing. That is one smooth circuit, and WIDE too. I can see and hear what you mean about staying off throttle before apex. Will be working on this at my next event this weekend for sure.

Close call at 5:29, looks like rider in front parked his KTM and you had a fast rider behind you.

And nice elbow drag shot at 5:52, really gives a sense for how fast you guys were going.
 

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I didn't notice the thread split intime, moving my last response to speedfinn here:



Watched most of it and subscribed, thanks for sharing. That is one smooth circuit, and WIDE too. I can see and hear what you mean about staying off throttle before apex. Will be working on this at my next event this weekend for sure.

Close call at 5:29, looks like rider in front parked his KTM and you had a fast rider behind you.

And nice elbow drag shot at 5:52, really gives a sense for how fast you guys were going.
Funny. I have watched that latest video a couple of times, and I was so totally focused on the line of the faster rider (I want to learn, always), that I did not even notice the elbow dragging. :surprise:

Track is 12 meters wide. Low camera position (on top of front wheel) might give some optical illusion.

Stock superbike track record is 1:18.355, but it was set 10 years ago on the old surface. There is totally new surface for this season, and it is faster than the old one/ it is interesting to see what kind of lap times/ records there will be on the first race at august. My pace in the video was 1:21.9-1:22.5.

When I am setting up a pass, I always ride one bike width wide (outer side of the line). If that is not possible (the rider in front of me is on the very edge of the track), then I leave normal gap and see if I can set up a pass at next turn.
It has saved me many times, one example:

 

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Over Slowing Corner Entry

Why? What can I do to fix it?

Entries are scary! Over slowing entry, going to brakes too hard. Very common!

This is what happens - over slow entry, brake too hard, over compress front end, realize braked too much, off brake, back on throttle, contact patch is now very small and FRONT IS UNDERLOADED

Biggest cause of front end loss of traction - UNDERLOADED FRONT

Report card - where do you let off the brake? Minimize neutral throttle

Entry corner vs Exit corner


  • Inspect radius of corner - long or short, increasing, steady, decreasing
  • Where you let off the brakes are very similar between bikes
  • Where are your EYES? Look for where you are off the brakes
  • Initial brake application is important
  • First 5% and last 5% of braking are most important. Don’t go straight to 20% braking.
  • Rate change of % of braking through a corner should be: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 20, 40, 80, 40, 20, 10, 5, 4, 3, 2, 2.5, 2, 1.75, 1.5, 1, 0.75, 0.5, 0.25, 0.10, FINALLY off brakes
  • Middle of seat entering braking zone? OVER SLOWED
  • Move over in the seat BEFORE braking zone
  • Don’t pinch gas tank - knee out - pinching gas tank puts weight on inside arm - inside foot important - take inside arm weight and transition to weight on inside foot
  • Report cards - where are you letting off the brakes? Where should you be letting off the brakes? How much neutral throttle are you using? Goal = 0 neutral throttle. Let off brakes later / get on gas sooner to minimize
 

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Rider at 5:50 mark is something else. Super smooth!

Corner setup sequence:


Can you outline your exact steps between braking to post apex (until bike is steered in right direction)? I.e, brake, off throttle, trail brake while starting to lean the bike, release brake at/before apex depending on turn, on throttle gradually, etc....

Do you use this sequence with all corners? If not, what exact corner types you change your technique?
 

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Rider at 5:50 mark is something else. Super smooth!

Corner setup sequence:


Can you outline your exact steps between braking to post apex (until bike is steered in right direction)? I.e, brake, off throttle, trail brake while starting to lean the bike, release brake at/before apex depending on turn, on throttle gradually, etc....

Do you use this sequence with all corners? If not, what exact corner types you change your technique?
I still use the very same basic sequence on every corner on every track.
But of course there is those exeptions to the rule. For example chicanes, or two consecutive corner so close to each other that you simply just do not have time (vs skills) to make all the rutine. Then you have to for example give up the brake between turns and set up your speed before first turn and use only off-throttle between turns, because you do not have time or skills to use brake between turns. But still everyhing else stays the same.


How about a picture? Does it answer to your questions?

 

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my goal this weekend is to get my data to look like that :nerd:

i do have two questions @speedfinn

what is the cause of the variations in A_Lon_GPS during last 50% of trail braking? are you varying brake lever pressure to hit your marker?

what is the cause of the variations in A_Lon_GPS during 'Linear throttle opening' and also '"Straight", lean angle < 30'? is that from up shifts?
 

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My favorite thread on the forum

About smash’s brake modulation comment:
“Rate change of % of braking through a corner should be: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 20, 40, 80, 40, 20, 10, 5, 4, 3, 2, 2.5, 2, 1.75, 1.5, 1, 0.75, 0.5, 0.25, 0.10, FINALLY off brakes”

Are you all able to do it that well - in 1% increments of braking? Do the race dashes help with providing that info on track?
 

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My favorite thread on the forum

About smash’s brake modulation comment:
“Rate change of % of braking through a corner should be: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 20, 40, 80, 40, 20, 10, 5, 4, 3, 2, 2.5, 2, 1.75, 1.5, 1, 0.75, 0.5, 0.25, 0.10, FINALLY off brakes”

Are you all able to do it that well - in 1% increments of braking? Do the race dashes help with providing that info on track?
that is just to provide the right idea of how to load / unload the front tire

if you look at @speedfinn acceleration graph during braking, that is a good example of loading the front, getting to max braking, then trailing off to the apex

looking at my data helps to verify proper (or in my case, improper) technique

the biggest thing i've learned so far is that i constantly lie to myself about how much and how long i open the throttle
 

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my goal this weekend is to get my data to look like that :nerd:

i do have two questions @speedfinn

what is the cause of the variations in A_Lon_GPS during last 50% of trail braking? are you varying brake lever pressure to hit your marker?

what is the cause of the variations in A_Lon_GPS during 'Linear throttle opening' and also '"Straight", lean angle < 30'? is that from up shifts?
Most of it (variation in graph line) comes directly from the way the system calculates the values from GPS signal. Only a small part comes from the things I am doing.

If I notice that I braked too early or too much, I just try to keep the correct line, and smooth out the trail braking faster.
And then I just wait for the apex, rolling (brakes off, throttle off) and waiting, once again...
 

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that is just to provide the right idea of how to load / unload the front tire

if you look at @speedfinn acceleration graph during braking, that is a good example of loading the front, getting to max braking, then trailing off to the apex

looking at my data helps to verify proper (or in my case, improper) technique

the biggest thing i've learned so far is that i constantly lie to myself about how much and how long i open the throttle
If you have skills and your bike is set up for real braking, then forget "loading the front".
Transition from 100% throttle to 100% brake should take less than 0.1 seconds, in ideal situation, there is no time to wait "loading the front".
But remember, that requires skills and bike front end, so do not try this at track if your bikes front end is not capable to "brake stabbing".

Do not worry about the throttle. You might be even much faster if you use less throttle than now, and focus 100% on your line.
Here is one young little girl with 250 cc bike, and she is faster than 90-95 % of 1000 cc track day riders:

 

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Do not worry about the throttle. You might be even much faster if you use less throttle than now, and focus 100% on your line.
i am using the controls incorrectly, needing to reposition my hand to grab brakes after every throttle roll-off. this adds up to 4.6 seconds every lap where there is 0% throttle and 0% brakes

i need to get the fundamentals down (how to operate controls) and then i will focus on my line by consciously using brake/apex/exit markers

mastering fundamentals so that they are muscle memory will reduce the things i have to think about during corner entry, freeing up attention to remember brake/apex/exit markers

edit: as silly as it may sound, i started playing MotoGP 2008 on the Xbox 360 and discovered i have the same issues in the game that i do in real life. after a few hours of practice (it was actually pretty frustrating at first) i am much more consistent in operating controls and the visual practice of looking ahead / checking where you are now is invaluable in my opinion. it's a great way to practice OODA (observe, orient, decide, act)
 

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the biggest thing i've learned so far is that i constantly lie to myself about how much and how long i open the throttle
LOL ALL racers (and fishermen, and golfers....) lie, the difference is that racers get caught most often because of the data gathering systems. I've read any number of articles over the years where racers swear one thing.....then get back to the pits to have the data guys show them EXACTLY what they had, or had not, been actually doing. Big Brother is watching! :)

I think all that IS an invaluable tool, however, as it IS 100% objective, and can show you without a doubt where you are doing well, and where you aren't.
 

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i am using the controls incorrectly, needing to reposition my hand to grab brakes after every throttle roll-off. this adds up to 4.6 seconds every lap where there is 0% throttle and 0% brakes
Is your brake lever too high up?

Sit on the saddle, put your Shoulder -- Elbow -- Wrist -- Palm -- Fingers to a line, and lower it down to handle bar/ brake lever.
Your palm should touch handle bar before your figers touch brake lever.

Rotate brake master cylinder assembly downwards as much as needed to get proper brake lever position.
It might end up like this...
http://racedac.com/s1000rrforum/6foot2_brake_lever_pos.JPG
 

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Maybe some nuggets here. @Dylan Code anything else to add?

youtu.be/3MbiMIDJQFk
If you have track only bike, then you should first consider opening up the clip on angle.

With track bike, it is better to modify the ergonomics to suit to your body, than modify your body position to suit improper ergonomics.
 

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Is your brake lever too high up?

Sit on the sadlle, put your Shoulder -- Elbow -- Wrist -- Palm -- Fingers to a line, and lower it down to handle bar/ brake lever.
Your palm should touch handle bar before your figers touch brake lever.

Rotate brake master cylinder assembly downwards as much as needed to get proper brake lever position.
It might end up like this...
http://racedac.com/s1000rrforum/6foot2_brake_lever_pos.JPG
i am 6'5" or 195cm, so maybe brake lever is too high, however i would have to raise clip ons to lower brake lever further.

this race week i want to see how the lowered clip ons feel, perhaps the trade off is worth it

also this race week i am gripping the throttle with four fingers and keeping my pointer finger above the brake lever at all times. this lets me keep one grip at all times on throttle tube so i do not have to re-grip every turn, saving time

 

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edit: as silly as it may sound, i started playing MotoGP 2008 on the Xbox 360 and discovered i have the same issues in the game that i do in real life. after a few hours of practice (it was actually pretty frustrating at first) i am much more consistent in operating controls and the visual practice of looking ahead / checking where you are now is invaluable in my opinion. it's a great way to practice OODA (observe, orient, decide, act)
I have used areal photoraphy to make accurate track profiles.
Used those profiles to learn more about individual turns, and yes, you can see a lot of things what you have not noticed because you were driving 200 kmh or in survival mode or just focused on your line etc.
Simulator to learn new track.
Simulator to make gear map for new track.
Youtube videos to learn new track.
Youtube videos to see apex and straight speeds to be able to calculate gear map.

It is so easy to go to new track when you already know the speeds and gears and driving lines what you want to use.
It takes only a couple of "slow" laps to adjust the parameters, and then you can drive on your own level.

And I have probably driven 100-1000 laps on Nurburgring Nordsleife...

And yes, I am using the very same basic skills set; brake mark, brake, turn in, trail brake, apex, linear throttle, exit; also on simulators.
And also noticed that if I play simulators off season, my brains-eyes-hands-feets stay tuned for track. Otherwise it takes two or three track days, or even more, before sensors are tuned for track in the beginning of the new season.
 

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