[____Kurt____]

So I just completed my 2nd track day as of last Saturday and I cannot help but continue to second guess my body position on braking and turn-in. I did my 1st track day last year with TPM here in NJ at the NJMP Lightning track. I learned a tremendous amount in the classroom as to what should be happening and how to do it. Learning so much at once and trying to apply it felt like I was juggling a dozen things when riding around the track. From that time on,on the street, I was able to be more relaxed and focus on certain things more as I rode, and didn't feel like I was going to get hit by another intro rider that couldn't keep his line. For my second track day, I rode with ACE without any classroom instruction in the intermediate class. I was constantly talking to different coaches tho to try to help improve my body position and riding style. By the second session, the coach that was currently helping me suggested I should be moved up to the next group as I was going faster than those in my group and I would be able to get coached better without having to constantly ride around traffic on the track.

So, with the help and suggestions from 3 different coaches, I received 3 different techniques that they suggested "were the correct one" and that I use for my outside leg and for braking. I understand riders do what works best for them and I need to find what works best for me, but I just don't feel comfortable no matter what I do when braking and turning in.

Current Technique: What I have been trying as of the latest technique is to have my outside legs' inner-thigh against the tank when braking so I do not put weight on the bars with cheek 1/4 off the seat, then inside foot peg between ball and toes pointing out while heel is touching swing arm and start bringing chin closer to my inside hand as I approach the apex.
What I am questioning most is seating position when braking. I've been told to sit back in the seat, clamp on the tank with both knees to prevent moving forward then open up for the corner. My only problem with this is I cannot stop from putting weight through my upper body to the bars. Also, when hard braking, it is hard to prevent my butt from sliding forward while setting up for turn in and continuing to trail brake. I just feel like there is too much movement unsettling the bike and that I am planted on the bike.

I feel most comfortable cornering when I am maintaining a fists width distance between the tank and my crotch, but this is hard to setup for when braking.
Another coach suggested I sit close to the tank so I cannot slide forward any further and that the tank can help hold me off the bars, which sort of works, but I then feel like I cannot open up my legs and that I pivot around the tank and cannot get proper seating position when turning in.

I cannot find any specifics out of the many hours I have been searching to help me start a solid foundation to build off of.
I apologize for the lengthy and somewhat confusing post, but there is so much to be said and trying to only use text makes explaining the situation a little harder.
Do you guys have tips or pointers? Thank you.

 

[BTB]

So I just completed my 2nd track day as of last Saturday and I cannot help but continue to second guess my body position on braking and turn-in. I did my 1st track day last year with TPM here in NJ at the NJMP Lightning track. I learned a tremendous amount in the classroom as to what should be happening and how to do it. Learning so much at once and trying to apply it felt like I was juggling a dozen things when riding around the track. From that time on,on the street, I was able to be more relaxed and focus on certain things more as I rode, and didn't feel like I was going to get hit by another intro rider that couldn't keep his line. For my second track day, I rode with ACE without any classroom instruction in the intermediate class. I was constantly talking to different coaches tho to try to help improve my body position and riding style. By the second session, the coach that was currently helping me suggested I should be moved up to the next group as I was going faster than those in my group and I would be able to get coached better without having to constantly ride around traffic on the track.

So, with the help and suggestions from 3 different coaches, I received 3 different techniques that they suggested "were the correct one" and that I use for my outside leg and for braking. I understand riders do what works best for them and I need to find what works best for me, but I just don't feel comfortable no matter what I do when braking and turning in.

Current Technique: What I have been trying as of the latest technique is to have my outside legs' inner-thigh against the tank when braking so I do not put weight on the bars with cheek 1/4 off the seat, then inside foot peg between ball and toes pointing out while heel is touching swing arm and start bringing chin closer to my inside hand as I approach the apex.
What I am questioning most is seating position when braking. I've been told to sit back in the seat, clamp on the tank with both knees to prevent moving forward then open up for the corner. My only problem with this is I cannot stop from putting weight through my upper body to the bars. Also, when hard braking, it is hard to prevent my butt from sliding forward while setting up for turn in and continuing to trail brake. I just feel like there is too much movement unsettling the bike and that I am planted on the bike.

I feel most comfortable cornering when I am maintaining a fists width distance between the tank and my crotch, but this is hard to setup for when braking.
Another coach suggested I sit close to the tank so I cannot slide forward any further and that the tank can help hold me off the bars, which sort of works, but I then feel like I cannot open up my legs and that I pivot around the tank and cannot get proper seating position when turning in.

I cannot find any specifics out of the many hours I have been searching to help me start a solid foundation to build off of.
I apologize for the lengthy and somewhat confusing post, but there is so much to be said and trying to only use text makes explaining the situation a little harder.
Do you guys have tips or pointers? Thank you.

Do you have tank grips? They will help with tank grip. Depends who teaches you but if you watch the Troy Baylee's school he teaches a different way to what the CSS does. I find I clamp on the way in then move off once you can unclamp your legs. Repetition helps. Do more track days and stuff will just start to happen

 

[____Kurt____]

Do you have tank grips? They will help with tank grip. Depends who teaches you but if you watch the Troy Baylee's school he teaches a different way to what the CSS does. I find I clamp on the way in then move off once you can unclamp your legs. Repetition helps. Do more track days and stuff will just start to happen

I did forget to mention that for the last week since the track day, I have done countless hours of reading comparisons between stomp grip and tech spec snake skin.

FYI snake skin is almost $20 cheaper on STG than revzilla if anyone in into saving money like myself.

So I ordered the snake skin at the end of the day based on a couple different factors. Longevity, durability, and comfort. Plus from what I read, its only slightly less grippy than stomp grip.
The next thing in my sights is a set of Attack Rearsets from rider. I feel that the distance between my foot and the notch in the gas tank can only be bridged when I'm fully extended on the toes to apply pressure to lock my knee. Im hoping the tank grip assists in slipping and the rear sets close the gap.

More track time is a must!! Until I get enough $ and time, I will be riding clear back roads to practice body position. I just want to make sure I'm practicing the correct techniques before I start hammering home with some drills.

Also, for Drills, what other ones can I practice other than straight line braking practicing to be set up for a corner?

Thanks again gentlemen!

 

[smash adams]

Check out Ken Hills podcast. He teaches the best how to ride and does a free podcast that has helped me a lot

https://m.soundcloud.com/ken-hill-534763963

 

[Tahoebrian5]

If yu rotate your hips a little bit and put the inside of your outside leg against the tank BEFORE you start your braking I find most of your weight is supported. It takes a bit of tension/effort to keep back from the tank. If I'm tired or lazy I'll let myself slide up farther toward the tank. The key is set up before you brake bcause it is harder to move around under braking force. You will settle into your style as you get more days in. also the one check off method seems to be on the way out. I'm more of both checks off, knee wrapped around the seat like Marquez.

 

[Cianciotta]

You should have pressure on your hands when braking - see 2:20 mark of this video (the entire video is worth watching):

Yes, back in the seat - try moving all the way back, you can always adjust forwarded if needed. When moving your ass, move back and diagonally at the same time. Remember, move early - "move your ass on the gas."

 

[z00]

As you found out you will receive different feedback from different people. You need to develop your own riding style. So you need to experience with different styles to find out what will work for you.

Pressure on handle bar should be minimal, only used for steering input. Everything else is on core, legs, and feet. Body position is not as important as vision, line, and bike controls. So you need to improve all of that not just BP.

Start with this https://rideuniversity.com/ you can register, it's free.

Even thought I don't ride with their style, but riding with ball of the foot is the most common.

I like techspec new x-line. They have a set for s1k.

 

[____Kurt____]

Check out Ken Hills podcast. He teaches the best how to ride and does a free podcast that has helped me a lot

https://m.soundcloud.com/ken-hill-534763963

Thank you, I will definitely look into this.

If yu rotate your hips a little bit and put the inside of your outside leg against the tank BEFORE you start your braking I find most of your weight is supported. It takes a bit of tension/effort to keep back from the tank. If I'm tired or lazy I'll let myself slide up farther toward the tank. The key is set up before you brake bcause it is harder to move around under braking force. You will settle into your style as you get more days in. also the one check off method seems to be on the way out. I'm more of both checks off, knee wrapped around the seat like Marquez.

I have been trying this and it works great for taking almost all of the forward moving weight from my hands, but isn't being up against the tank wrong for proper hip angle?

Whats comfortable for cornering is about a fists width away from the gas tank, any closer and I feel like I can't open up my legs and that I'm more or less pivoting around the tank.
I was doing about a cheek off the seat in the beginning of the day with a "triangle of daylight" but one of the coaches stressed that I was "trying too hard" and "exaggerating" body position for the pace I was riding. He was the only coach that had mentioned this to me, but he was also the fastest if that counts for anything.

It seems that the fists width makes me comfortable while cornering but not when braking and the thigh against the tank is good for braking but not cornering.

You should have pressure on your hands when braking - see 2:20 mark of this video (the entire video is worth watching): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1d-9T80LbJQ

Yes, back in the seat - try moving all the way back, you can always adjust forwarded if needed. When moving your ass, move back and diagonally at the same time. Remember, move early - "move your ass on the gas."

I watched this video earlier as I saw it in another braking thread, and it seems so opposite of what everyone else is saying. Weight on the bars dives the forks harder, taking up valuable suspension travel, and doesn't let the front end move naturally as it should.
It obviously works for certain people as a reputable school is teaching this technique.
It just makes more sense to me to not have any weight on the bars if possible.

As you found out you will receive different feedback from different people. You need to develop your own riding style. So you need to experience with different styles to find out what will work for you.

Pressure on handle bar should be minimal, only used for steering input. Everything else is on core, legs, and feet. Body position is not as important as vision, line, and bike controls. So you need to improve all of that not just BP.

Start with this https://rideuniversity.com/ you can register, it's free.

Even thought I don't ride with their style, but riding with ball of the foot is the most common.

I like techspec new x-line. They have a set for s1k.

I knew I would be getting different advise from everyone. Its a subject like foot position. Troy Corser says heels locked in (I tried this and I cannot get a positive grip as my foot slides right off my peg. I will have to revisit this when I get a new set of rear sets) while Keith Code says balls of feet on peg while pushing the heel up (currently what is working for me).
I wanted see what most people suggested for my specific situation so I could be pointed in a good direction to start trying different things.
I signed up to ride university and I am currently checking it out. Please explain more when you say you don't ride their style.

Thanks for all the feedback so far.

 

[BTB]

I found that a set of rear sets was probably the best mod I've done to help with my riding. You can't go wrong with those attacks. The coach saying that you're trying to hard with your body positioning is probably right. To give you an idea I've only just got my knee down after probably 7 track days. I've always got pictures taken and I've only ever had half a cheek off the seat. Last time out I was carrying a lot more speed in certain corners and shaved a lot of time off my lap I also had most of my arse off the seat in the corners I was carrying the speed through with the knee down.

I don't even try to knee down on the road. It's not the place and if you watch road racing they actually don't get down like the track guys because of all the gutters and obstacles that are on the apexes.

 

[smash adams]

Here's a good one to start with, listen to it and let me know what you think

https://m.soundcloud.com/ken-hill-5...-sport-fundamentals-body-position-body-timing

 

[Cianciotta]

Thank you, I will definitely look into this.
I watched this video earlier as I saw it in another braking thread, and it seems so opposite of what everyone else is saying. Weight on the bars dives the forks harder, taking up valuable suspension travel, and doesn't let the front end move naturally as it should.
It obviously works for certain people as a reputable school is teaching this technique.
It just makes more sense to me to not have any weight on the bars if possible.

You want to be on the brakes lighter for a longer period. Initial braking will drive the suspension down; however, you will modulate the brakes - remaining brake pad contact allowing the suspension to ease back into the sweet spot.

Yes, it is taught at YCRS and I have attended. Watch the fast guys I think you you will see this technique.

 

[Aaron]

Can someone explain this whole brake less longer theory?

Because if you're going for faster lap times, it's absolutely wrong until you're turning in. If you're still straight, you want to be either wide open throttle, or closed throttle 100% brakes, never in between.

 

[z00]

I knew I would be getting different advise from everyone. Its a subject like foot position. Troy Corser says heels locked in (I tried this and I cannot get a positive grip as my foot slides right off my peg. I will have to revisit this when I get a new set of rear sets) while Keith Code says balls of feet on peg while pushing the heel up (currently what is working for me).
I wanted see what most people suggested for my specific situation so I could be pointed in a good direction to start trying different things.
I signed up to ride university and I am currently checking it out. Please explain more when you say you don't ride their style.

Thanks for all the feedback so far.

I ride with my heels on the pegs. Ride univ teaches to ride with balls of your feet. Watch Troy videos carefully, he explains how to support your body. Your mass needs to be supported by your legs/core, locked in from top to bottom, that's why your foot is sliding.

Also, if you can do CSS classes to get you started on the basics that would be the best for you IMO. You're not going to learn as much without a coach showing and correcting what you're doing wrong. Yamaha championship school is also good if they go to your track. Or do Troy's school if you plan to go to EU.

I was in your shoes when I started; trying to hang off, lean as far as I can, etc... it turns out to go fast one needs to do the opposite. Leaning less = more grip, hanging off less = more stability and agility. Don't get tricked like most people thinking hanging off like motoGP guys is gonna make you faster. Tires used on motoGP bikes cost as much as a new RR. I had a friend that crashed at VIR the other week trying to hang off (she was going slow in novice group, she is ok). She completely got sucked into BP instead of taking the right line (she ran wide).

It's hard to put this in actionable terms that our bodies and brains can understand. Only seat time on the track and the willing to learn will get you there, don't waste too much time reading and watching, you won't remember $hit when you're on the track, you need to exercise muscle memory.

Take one thing at a time from stuff I mentioned. Leave BP for later, all you need to do is move your butt to the side you're leaning into before you brake for a turn, keep most of your weight on feet and legs. Balance your mass on inside and outside legs (50% on each leg is fine for now until you find out if you're inside or outside foot dominate). Improve this as you improve other areas.

 

[Cianciotta]

Can someone explain this whole brake less longer theory?

Because if you're going for faster lap times, it's absolutely wrong until you're turning in. If you're still straight, you want to be either wide open throttle, or closed throttle 100% brakes, never in between.

It's brake assisted steering or better known as trail braking. Staying on the breaks after turn-in. I believe it is the same thing you saying - I just wouldn't say 100% on the brakes - implying 100% brake pressure. It opposes the theory of doing all your braking while straight up and down and hoping for the best in a turn.

 

[Outta Control]

It's brake assisted steering or better known as trail braking. Staying on the breaks after turn-in. I believe it is the same thing you saying - I just wouldn't say 100% on the brakes - implying 100% brake pressure. It opposes the theory of doing all your braking while straight up and down and hoping for the best in a turn.

I agree and disagree with you on this. 0

Breaking before the turn is not a theory but an accepted FACT. It allows full traction to the tyres and the "hoping for the best" is BS.

If you ever read Proficient Motorcycling, Total Control, SportRiding Techniques, Smooth Riding: The Pridmore Way, etc. you will understand and see the light as to the benefits of braking upright before the turn.

Here is a video for you to watch.

 

[z00]

lol people misunderstand what trail braking is. Braking is not an off/on switch. You get about 70% (depending on the turn) done while bike is upright (most traction), then braking pressure is reduced gradually until the apex (a bit before, at, or after depending on the turn). This keeps the suspension compressed (more grip from a loaded tire). People who say get all of the braking done before the turn are following the old school way of riding. That's why we replace our MCs with aftermarket ones so we can modulate and feel the brakes better, mostly when trail braking. There was a great clip on motogp site the other day with Rossi trailing braking, camera on his throttle hand. And he is using two fingers, riding styles evolve with equipment (tires, MCs, etc...), nothing stays the same.

 

[Dylan Code]

Can someone explain this whole brake less longer theory?

Because if you're going for faster lap times, it's absolutely wrong until you're turning in. If you're still straight, you want to be either wide open throttle, or closed throttle 100% brakes, never in between.

I have 2D data logs from MotoGP, Moto2, World Superbike & AMA Superbike. The data consistently shows distinct similarities across all classes, all tracks, and most corners that require brakes:

Time to apply brakes close to or at maximum pressure: 0.3 seconds
Time to release brakes while leaning bike into corner: 1.0-2.0 seconds

Yes there are exceptions but this was strikingly similar across all types of bikes and tracks. Rear brake usage was far more variable rider to rider, corner to corner, and even lap to lap (same rider, same corner).

Make sure to take riding advice from people who use and know how to interpret data. You'd be surprised how many "facts" people create out of thin air that are disproved by real data.

 

[Outta Control]

...Yes there are exceptions but this was strikingly similar across all types of bikes and tracks. Rear brake usage was far more variable rider to rider, corner to corner, and even lap to lap (same rider, same corner).

Make sure to take riding advice from people who use and know how to interpret data. You'd be surprised how many "facts" people create out of thin air that are disproved by real data.

Just watching the live telemetry data that MotoGP occasionally show can reveal the time, sequence, and amount of both braking and throttle application from two riders.

 

[Cianciotta]

I have 2D data logs from MotoGP, Moto2, World Superbike & AMA Superbike. The data consistently shows distinct similarities across all classes, all tracks, and most corners that require brakes:

Time to apply brakes close to or at maximum pressure: 0.3 seconds
Time to release brakes while leaning bike into corner: 1.0-2.0 seconds

Yes there are exceptions but this was strikingly similar across all types of bikes and tracks. Rear brake usage was far more variable rider to rider, corner to corner, and even lap to lap (same rider, same corner).

Make sure to take riding advice from people who use and know how to interpret data. You'd be surprised how many "facts" people create out of thin air that are disproved by real data.

So just to clarify for some - braking pressure occurs BOTH prior to and after corner entry - Correct Dylan?

I believe Dylan and the stats of some of the fastest riders.

 

[Cianciotta]

I agree and disagree with you on this. 0

Breaking before the turn is not a theory but an accepted FACT. It allows full traction to the tyres and the "hoping for the best" is BS.

If you ever read Proficient Motorcycling, Total Control, SportRiding Techniques, Smooth Riding: The Pridmore Way, etc. you will understand and see the light as to the benefits of braking upright before the turn.

Here is a video for you to watch.

Thanks for the video - I would assume we can agree Marquez is a great ride - I would also assume we can agree he is at least slightly leaned over in this turn - Look at his right hand

Pic a rider of your choice and take a look at the pics.