[speedfinn]

i do not yet know how elevation change should affect my controls

i think i should be off the brakes sooner up hill and on gas sooner downhill

however i think i am holding brakes longer uphill and waiting to get on gas until later

i think this sector is where i can find biggest improvement, because it is a combination of turns in addition to elevation changes

At the moment you have totally wrong line, and you must wait the bike to turn before you can get on the gas.

BTW, can you now answer to your question:"Can you explain more about how the slow parts are actually the important parts?"

 

[smash adams]

At the moment you have totally wrong line, and you must wait the bike to turn before you can get on the gas.

BTW, can you now answer to your question:"Can you explain more about how the slow parts are actually the important parts?"

you are right - and i am confused when i am passed by someone on the gas, when i am still waiting for direction! this should be a clue to me that i am on the wrong line.

poor entry point in turn 1 puts my t1 apex in wrong location

poor entry point in turn 2 puts my turn 2 exit / turn 3 entry in wrong location

poor entry point in turn 3 puts my turn 3 exit / turn 4 entry in wrong location

poor entry point in turn 4 puts my turn 4 exit / turn 5 entry in wrong location

poor entry point in turn 5 puts my turn 5 exit / turn 6 entry in wrong location

poor entry point in turn 6 puts my turn 6 exit / turn 7 entry in wrong location

finally turn 8 arrives and i start to make time until 11, when there is more combination corners

i have some reading to do

http://motorcycleminds.org/virtuallibrary/ridersafety/Full Control_2013.pdf

 

[smash adams]

some things about turn entry which i am struggling with

Two important things you must be conscious
about by cornering: where you will start curving,
and, – not less important, – where you want to
steer.

Choose your steering point early. When
you get close to it, move your focus into the
curve, to where you are going.

Let the peripheral vision keep track on the steering point.

When you give the steering command you have to
know where to point the bike. That is why it is
so essential to move your focus into the curve
before you reach your chosen steering point.

Your wide attention, through your peripheral
vision, knows when you reach your steering
point, even if your focus is far ahead into the
curve. Rehearse this until it becomes a habit.​

 

[speedfinn]

you are right - and i am confused when i am passed by someone on the gas, when i am still waiting for direction! this should be a clue to me that i am on the wrong line.

If you have to wait (at lean angle) before throttle, too early apex, move the apex.
If you _could_ open the throttle faster than normally (do not do it, stick to basics), too late apex, move the apex.
If you can linearily open throttle (and pick up the bike at the same time) from apex, you have nailed the turn.
When you move apex, you are forced to change your line and braking mark, to hit that apex.
And/or usually you brake too much or too early, so you can keep the brake mark even if you move apex, then change only the line while braking.

And you should think apex as a freely movable point. There is no rules where it has to be, other than it has to be on your line.

 

[smash adams]

If you have to wait (at lean angle) before throttle, too early apex, move the apex.

If you _could_ open the throttle faster than normally (do not do it, stick to basics), too late apex, move the apex.

If you can linearily open throttle (and pick up the bike at the same time) from apex, you have nailed the turn.

When you move apex, you are forced to change your line and braking mark, to hit that apex.

And/or usually you brake too much or too early, so you can keep the brake mark even if you move apex, then change only the line while braking.

And you should think apex as a freely movable point. There is no rules where it has to be, other than it has to be on your line.

these are good ways to evaluate / adjust line and i will memorize them.

i need to optimize the line around the track, from t1 through t6

my t2 exit / t3 entry is on the wrong side of the track, and it throws off the whole sector!

how should i change my linear roll on of throttle when i am going downhill? increase rate of roll on or decrease?

 

[speedfinn]

how should i change my linear roll on of throttle when i am going downhill? increase rate of roll on or decrease?

Just try to keep it as basic as possible. If it is not a problem, do not make it a problem.

If you want to get in to details, it depens on; speed, gear, rpm, initial throttle, the rate of decline, etc.

Use basic throttle, if that is a problem, decrease.

If you want to improve lap time, consentrate on the line.

 

[smash adams]

Just try to keep it as basic as possible. If it is not a problem, do not make it a problem.

If you want to get in to details, it depens on; speed, gear, rpm, initial throttle, the rate of decline, etc.

Use basic throttle, if that is a problem, decrease.

If you want to improve lap time, consentrate on the line.

okay, i will ignore elevation changes until it is a problem

here is my target line

starting at 1:04, i am not light on the bars for t1 which slows my turn in at steering point, pushing my apex to the wrong location

i think that better locking into the bike with my lower body will allow faster and more precise steering

i think that engaging my core will better lock me into the bike

https://youtu.be/ZoZFF1X8bXA?t=1m4s

during yoga practice i realized i am not engaging my core at turn in / steering point!

being loose on the bars doesn't mean being loose in your core / abdominal muscles! there is necessary tightness and necessary lightness in close proximity to each other, i think i've got it backwards :surprise:

 

[speedfinn]

here is my target line

I see old skool "square off" bullshit in couple of places in that picture?

 

[smash adams]

I see old skool "square off" bullshit in couple of places in that picture?

turn 1 and turn 5?

did we find another wrong concept which is holding me back? i thought 'square off' was the fast way around for liter bike? should i not be trying to 'square off' all corners?

 

[speedfinn]

turn 1 and turn 5?

did we find another wrong concept which is holding me back? i thought 'square off' was the fast way around for liter bike? should i not be trying to 'square off' all corners?

F**K no! Never ever try to "square off" any turn with modern 1000 cc bikes.

If you have a 2-stroke era MotoGP-bike, then you should "sqaure off" turns. The problem was "uncontrollable" power output (+tyre&suspension technology = "poor" grip vs power spike) when opening throttle, that is why bike had to be about upright when the power kicked in. And the only way to get bike upright at that position was to "sqare off" corners.

But that was 2-stroke MotoGP era, not modern 1000 cc with electronic control units and current tyre & suspension & traction control era.

Current 1000 cc bikes:
From brake mark/ turn in point to apex:
Radius of the line should be steadily tightening, at the same time trail braking from 100% to 0%, and lean angle from 0 to max.
From apex to exit:
Radius of the line should be steadily "opening", at the same time linear throttle opening from 100% to 0%, and lean angle from max to 0.

 

[smash adams]

F**K no! Never ever try to "square off" any turn with modern 1000 cc bikes.

If you have a 2-stroke era MotoGP-bike, then you should "sqaure off" turns. The problem was "uncontrollable" power output (+tyre&suspension technology = "poor" grip vs power spike) when opening throttle, that is why bike had to be about upright when the power kicked in. And the only way to get bike upright at that position was to "sqare off" corners.

But that was 2-stroke MotoGP era, not modern 1000 cc with electronic control units and current tyre & suspension & traction control era.

Current 1000 cc bikes:
From brake mark/ turn in point to apex:
Radius of the line should be steadily tightening, at the same time trail braking from 100% to 0%, and lean angle from 0 to max.
From apex to exit:
Radius of the line should be steadily "opening", at the same time linear throttle opening from 100% to 0%, and lean angle from max to 0.

i am happy to hear this, now i can forget the 'square off' and focus on the line / apex locations!

i can be six seconds faster per lap after implementing these feedback

3 seconds from sector 1 proper lines, 1.5 seconds from sector 4 proper lines, and at least 1.5 seconds from sectors 2 and 3 using proper lines

this will bring me to 10 seconds of course record, and give me a shot at placing third overall in open superbike novice 2018 championship (currently in 4th)

thank you @speedfinn!!

 

[speedfinn]

this will bring me to 10 seconds of course record, and give me a shot at placing third overall in open superbike novice 2018 championship (currently in 4th)

You should think it this way. Any average Joe, with average skills and average physiology, is cabable to reach laptimes which are 2-3 seconds from track record. The only thing required is the knownledge what to do.
If you do not have the knownledge, then you will be doing errors, and learn from them and it is a long and slow way.

The learning does not happen on the track, the learning happens before you go on to the track, and on the pits after the set.

 

[smash adams]

You should think it this way. Any average Joe, with average skills and average physiology, is cabable to reach laptimes which are 2-3 seconds from track record. The only thing required is the knownledge what to do.
If you do not have the knownledge, then you will be doing errors, and learn from them and it is a long and slow way.

The learning does not happen on the track, the learning happens before you go on to the track, and on the pits after the set.

wow i would be so happy for 3 seconds from record

that makes me feel better about ignoring people when they say 'wow you dropped 4 seconds! from here on it will be a tenth here, tenth there'

i don't want a tenth, i want ten! i am ten away from proper controls and lines, not a tenth LOL

 

[speedfinn]

wow i would be so happy for 3 seconds from record

that makes me feel better about ignoring people when they say 'wow you dropped 4 seconds! from here on it will be a tenth here, tenth there'

i don't want a tenth, i want ten! i am ten away from proper controls and lines, not a tenth LOL

As I said, it only requires knownledge.

I have also encountered all those traditional bullshit slogans. And once I was debating with a fellow track day rider, and I said that I already know, I have the knownledge, how to ride 3-5 seconds from track record. He did not believe me. Now I linked him my youtube video where I im riding 3-5 seconds from track record, case closed, F U.

 

[speedfinn]

Related to "ACS/DTC warning light at high lean angles" -thread.

Here is one example how my own custom DCT maps works.

In a turn with positive camber and gentle uphill.

Time between those two vertical lines is one second, and Measuring values -screens are 0, 0.5 and 1.0 seconds.

At 0 s: Lean angle 50 deg, twist grip 38%, 7000 RPM, rear wheel speed 88 kmh, DTC gives 86 % of the requested torque, because slip% is 11.4%, actual throttle flaps are 23%, and ignition advance something (unfortunately bmw ecu does not tell it to logger?).

At 0.5 s: Lean angle 49 deg, twist grip 43%, 7900 RPM, rear wheel speed 97 kmh, DTC gives 92 % of the requested torque, because slip% is 12.1%, actual throttle flaps are 31% (and ignition advance something).

At 1.0 s: Lean angle 47 deg, twist grip 47%, 8800 RPM, rear wheel speed 108 kmh, DTC gives 98 % of the requested torque, because slip% is 13.1%, actual throttle flaps are 37% (and ignition advance something).

Note that SlipCorrMap and TrqIncrease maps has an huge impact on DTC behaviour, when torque is returned. With my maps torque returns very smoothly and linearily = rear tyre grip and slip is very stable = bike rear is laterally very stable.

Note that SlipCorrMap ( = rear vs front tyre profile difference) directly affects to the "Slip%" what ecu calculates. So if ecu thinks that slip is 10%, and the map is changed to allow 1% more slip, then ecu sees only 9% slip in the very same situation, and calculates DTC intervention based on that.

And also, I have limited the allowed slip on (SlipCorrMap) lean angles between 46 and 60 deg to very minimum. So that is one reason why ecu thinks there is slip on those high lean angles when in reality there is little to none actual slip.

In the graph, the drop after 1.0 s happens because a the gentle uphill ends and you must reduce throttle a bit to turn the bike.

 

[speedfinn]

One simple rule is that if you want to increase throttle, you must decrease lean angle.
Everybody knows that.
And it is very easy to see it in data. The shape of the graph tells it.

If you have simultaneous planes in throttle and lean angle graph, then you have too early apex.
Also if you can not open the throttle with one continous move, then you have too early apex.

If you have simultaneously (and continously) increasing throttle and decreasing lean angle graph, then you have correct apex.

 

[simes007us]

For an amateur track day go'er something like track-addict and a GPS beacon is a better economical option; (it's $120 USD). It will show you how fast you're going, the lines you are taking, where you are breaking/accelerating and will compare laps against each other. Unless you are bouncing off the lap record forking out x5 more money and spending hours pouring over the data isn't an efficient use of time. I'd admit it's cool to talk about but, it's actually too much data to easily compute. I really couldn't care less what percentage of throttle I'm using. All I need to know is where I can use more gas, if I can brake later or if my line is correct. If you want to learn fast instant feedback is key. Staring at a laptop days after a track day looking at the TC being at 22.3% won't help you as it has no context.

I can easily compare myself to my instructor in seconds on a Mario Kart map graphic. It's easy. I can see where they brake and where they turn in and I can try to replicate it on the next session.

Point being, when recently testing the new Susuki GSX-R the test rider got to 2 seconds off the stock bike lap record in 8 laps on a track he hadn't seen before. No data required. Learn how to go around the track then figure out what the bike is doing.

I personally dropped 35 seconds a lap doing this in a year. It's 98%, not the bikes fault.

 

[speedfinn]

For an amateur track day go'er something like track-addict and a GPS beacon is a better economical option; (it's $120 USD). It will show you how fast you're going, the lines you are taking, where you are breaking/accelerating and will compare laps against each other. Unless you are bouncing off the lap record forking out x5 more money and spending hours pouring over the data isn't an efficient use of time. I'd admit it's cool to talk about but, it's actually too much data to easily compute. I really couldn't care less what percentage of throttle I'm using. All I need to know is where I can use more gas, if I can brake later or if my line is correct. If you want to learn fast instant feedback is key. Staring at a laptop days after a track day looking at the TC being at 22.3% won't help you as it has no context.

I can easily compare myself to my instructor in seconds on a Mario Kart map graphic. It's easy. I can see where they brake and where they turn in and I can try to replicate it on the next session.

Point being, when recently testing the new Susuki GSX-R the test rider got to 2 seconds off the stock bike lap record in 8 laps on a track he hadn't seen before. No data required. Learn how to go around the track then figure out what the bike is doing.

I personally dropped 35 seconds a lap doing this in a year. It's 98%, not the bikes fault.

As you said, the learning does not happen on the track. It happens before the track session, or after the track session.

And you should always remember: If you are compairing your (GPS) data to another drivers data, you are just compairing your errors to the other riders errors.
So that is why it is better to understand your own individual data.

I have always used RaceChrono and 10 Hz GPS. And i also use BMW 2D datalogger at the same time.
Staring at a laptop days after a track day looking at the TC being at 22.3% will help you a lot, because you can combine it with one or more other graphs, and you will get a very accurate and detailed picture what you are really doing on the track.

When you understand what kind of shape of a individual graph line is good, then you can identify and isolate all of your problems very easily. You will notice that it is always your fault, but you do not believe it before "someone" tells you that, and that someone is data.

And there is very simple basic rule for a good graph shape: If the line is changing linearily, continously and smoothly, between the transitions, then you are doing things correctly.
And vice versa: If you have planes and/or sudden changes on the line, then you are doing something wrong.
So, as you see: It's easy.

BTW, the topic of the thread is "Datalogger instruction resources", so please contribute, if you have any actual knowledge to share. :wink2:

 

[Slaki]

I am really amazed to see the knowledge that comes out of this thread. All these graphs looks gibberish to me, but slowly starting to make sense. I was really amazed how Speedfin could see exactly what was happening with a motorcycle by just looking at the graph in post 56.

Now off to the laptop to start learning!

 

[speedfinn]

Slaki asked: Correct me if I am wrong. I am not riding hard enough for the traction to kick in right? Only turn 2 and 5 it kicks in right?

No and yes.

No part:

The problem is that you have a regular/repeating error in your driving line and/or throttle control.
Turning in just a bit too early, and/or opening throttle 0-30% too early (while in max lean angle).
So, if you now start riding (trying) harder, AND you have that regular error -> that is the most common combination for a hi-sider among fast/race riders.

And, 2 and 5 are the slowest corners of the track, right?
You can not compaire slow/medium/fast corners 1:1:1, because you have different torque (different gear and RPM) available at rear tyre.
And also you have different settings in DTC for slow/medium/fast corners.


Yes part:

You are riding close to tyre traction limit, very close to limit in slow corners.
Also, if you have notised, most of the hi-siders for any (fast) rider occurs in a slow corner (and collar bone snaps).
That's because typically a rider is much more cautious in medium and fast turns.
So yes, you could "ride harder" in medium/fast turns.
BUT, then you would hi-side from a greater speed, 2X...4X higher energy, multiple broken bones etc and season is over.

Additional part:

So my advise is that first fix your line and throttle control, and then ride harder.
The difference is;
If you do not fix the errors, you will hi-side very soon, you will not be faster, you just try harder.
But if you fix those, you will be faster, and then you will hi-side. So at least you get some very good results before hi-siding.

If you f-up line before (late) apex, you can not fix that with throttle after apex, because your line after apex does not allow that.
Causation is the real enemy.
If you still try to fix it with throttle, you will hi-side.

Turn in just a bit later/calmly/smoother, and you can pick the bike up earlier.
And because of that you can open the throttle (keep it linear!) faster and harder.
That is what you want, to open the throttle faster and harder, right?

If your line before apex is correct then also the line after apex is correct, and that allows you to use throttle.
https://www.s1000rrforum.com/forum/...gger-instruction-resources-8.html#post2309734
https://www.s1000rrforum.com/forum/...gger-instruction-resources-7.html#post2289436

General blah blah slogans or something:
Do not try to be faster, you will crash.
Try to be better, and the speed will follow/ and you will be faster.

And a pic, causation between touching throttle too early, and line going wide/ not able to pick up the bike: http://racedac.com/s1000rr/TouchingThrottleEarlyDoesNotMakeYouFast.png