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Crashing

8K views 46 replies 14 participants last post by  misti 
#1 ·
One of Keith Code's articles is titled "crashing" and in it he says, "Riding errors which lead to crashing follow distinct patterns. Once detected they can be used to make huge leaps forward in skill and confidence."

What do you he means by "distinct patterns"? What kinds of errors do you think can indicate whether or not someone is on the path to crashing?"

The article can be seen here:
Crashing - Articles by Keith - Cornering Forum
 
#2 ·
Laws of physics will dictate what causes a crash. How each rider violates these laws will be different. Having crashed twice on the track (one with CSS, another on my own). I got to learn about the limits the hard way >:) sometimes it's rider error, other times it's environment or equipment (rain, new pavement, cold tires, etc...). But at the end it's a rider's responsibility to be environmentally aware.

Errors are easy to spot if someone is about to crash. But a distinction needs to be made whether it's a one-off error or a repeated error. For example, on the track I find myself experimenting with shifting/braking techniques. If someone sees me they would say I'm going to crash. But I'm intentionally making mistakes to see what works best for me.

Red flags would be any of the below in a repeated fashion:

wrong line into and out of a turn.
bad vision, not seeing what's coming. Bad reference point, etc...
choppy on brakes/throttle/clutch.
body position (crossed up, etc...).
Overly aggressive riding/passing. Ambition outweighs skill :D
Physical readiness. Tired, lack of focus, etc...

A crash will be inevitable when any of the above is combined.
 
#24 ·
Errors are easy to spot if someone is about to crash. But a distinction needs to be made whether it's a one-off error or a repeated error.

Red flags would be any of the below in a repeated fashion:

wrong line into and out of a turn.
bad vision, not seeing what's coming. Bad reference point, etc...
choppy on brakes/throttle/clutch.
body position (crossed up, etc...).
Overly aggressive riding/passing. Ambition outweighs skill :D
Physical readiness. Tired, lack of focus, etc...

A crash will be inevitable when any of the above is combined.
I think the most important thing you said here (and you said a lot of good things, is that the distinction needs to be made whether it is a one off mistake or a repeated one.) I think the most important thing to do after any crash is analyze and figure out what caused the crash, what ERROR was made, so that you can learn to not make the same mistake twice. Good list of other red flags.

I think that the prompt is asking about identifying distinct patterns that leads to your own crash.

Looking back at the crashes, the chunks I took (chunk = each time I brake a little further) are too big which pushes me past limit of adhesion. Too big a chunk and you can't recover in time before hard parts touch.

Taking my time, only pushing the limit little by little, small chunks, takes me to the limit more gradually so that once I cross it the slip is small and manageable and...dare I say...ADDICTING!!!!!!!
This is great. Too big of a chuck can equal a crash. Smaller chunks, smaller increments of improvement are necessary. I remember racing AMA and having Keith Code on call (cell phone) to coach me along the way. He would (like we do at the super bike school) corral me down to only working on one thing at a time. Small improvement, small changes, not taking too much at once.....good points.

Maybe Code is referring to things like fixating on a target that you feel like your going to hit (and then hitting it), not looking where you want to go, or going rigid on the handle bars instead of loosening up and letting the bike self stabilize.
These sound like things that could eventually lead to crashes.....

After reading the article (good, by the way), I'll take a shot at answering the OP's question - remembering I've only been coaching about 3 years (and I'm too old to go race), so take it with a grain of salt.

To me, crashing normally falls into two categories:

1. Technical:

2. Mental:

Would enjoy feedback from the OP and experienced coaches.
I think you could probably narrow it all down to technical errors. No matter what your mental state is or whether you are cautious or overly aggressive, each crash can usually be traced to a technical error. If you have a cautious rider that crashed then maybe he got too scared and tightened up on the bars, target fixated and ran off the track and crashed....if you have an aggressive rider then maybe he went into a corner much too fast, tensed up, target fixated and then ran off the track....

If you are tired mentally then maybe you didn't look far enough ahead, if you are trying to go fast then maybe you didn't look far enough ahead....etc..

Most crashes can be traced to a particular technical error and as I mentioned above, it is important to take a good hard look at each particular crash to figure out what the error was so that you can improve upon it and not do it again....
 
#5 ·
I think that the prompt is asking about identifying distinct patterns that leads to your own crash.

I have only crashed on track, and it was because I had no fear to push the limits (riding kayo 125gp). I brake later and later until I blow the turn, then back off a little. I get on the gas sooner and sooner until it gets squirrely, then back off a little.

Looking back at the crashes, the chunks I took (chunk = each time I brake a little further) are too big which pushes me past limit of adhesion. Too big a chunk and you can't recover in time before hard parts touch.

Taking my time, only pushing the limit little by little, small chunks, takes me to the limit more gradually so that once I cross it the slip is small and manageable and...dare I say...ADDICTING!!!!!!!
 
#9 ·
After reading the article (good, by the way), I'll take a shot at answering the OP's question - remembering I've only been coaching about 3 years (and I'm too old to go race), so take it with a grain of salt.

To me, crashing normally falls into two categories:

1. Technical: By this, I mean both the bike and the rider. There are certain laws of physics that the bike is accountable to, i.e. setup, tires, heat, temp, track surface, etc etc. Riders have to be able to spot that and take corrective action. For example wayy too much lean angle on street tires on an off camber turn. Rider - may include body position, heavy handed brake or gas, etc etc. A good coach can spot these and hopefully make the correction before it's costly to the rider.

2. Mental: This one is the really difficult one to teach (and for many, harder to learn). A rider that either has the "I (or my bike) can't do it" or the opposite "go for it I'm bulletproof" mentality; the former will get them to not relax and tighten up, usually resulting in going wide and running off the track - while the latter usually results in a low or high side (or worse) because the rider is using up 101% of their existing talent. Both are equally difficult to train a rider out of.

I personally fall into the overly cautious category. I doubt myself and my bike way too much. However, that's kept me to a total of 3 crashes since 2009 at the track. Two of them were Technical (cold tire on wet day) and one was in my first year when I tightened up and ran off the track. And I can still feel myself tense up on those spots at each track. Each rider has their own pace they are comfortable at progressing..some have to be encouraged (like me) and some have to be held back for their own safety. I am a firm believer in baby steps and a slow progression to build rider confidence - as they learn more about their bike (technical) and themselves (mental) they make progress. I am grateful to those patient coaches who helped me - and those that still do because you never stop learning. My coach and mentor tells me "you may have to give up some of your strong survival instinct - smartly - and take some risk to progress" and I agree with him.

I am also a USPA (United States Parachute Association) Instructor with 25 years and 2500 jumps worth of experience. I've seen the same thing play out in skydiving. Usually the cautious but persistent ones tend to stay in the sport the longest. The "go for it" types usually get really good, really quick, then the "your ambition outweighed your talent" moment happens, and they are hurt (or worse) and out of the sport. I had to see a few people pay the ultimate price before I gained a healthy dose of respect for the sport. I'm probably overcautious in the track because 'crashing' in skydiving has an entirely different consequence.

Would enjoy feedback from the OP and experienced coaches.
 
#11 ·
@ skydiver.

I think your reasoning is fairly spot on but as opposed to gross movement such as consciously jumping off a perfectly good plane is a bit different from fine motor movement that required to operate a motorcycle. Each manipulation has a causal effect to the bike's overall attitude and traction.

One are that most ignored areas in any training program is the physiological and human performance side of the operator.

skydiver, your analysis on the Technical and Mental side is some great insight but from my perspective the missing component in any high risk activity is the basic act to "relax". Just this simple act is actually quite difficult to some folks to obtain and I have observed this from new riders to experienced ones.

In fact it is much harder to teach a new rider to learn to operate a motorcycle safely versus teaching advance techniques to a student who has or currently rides. I compare teaching a new rider to sculpting a fine detailed statue from a large piece of limestone versus an experienced rider that just needs some buffering out.
 
#12 · (Edited)
I'd disagree a little. Stepping off the edge is the easy part, you have no idea how much fine motor skill it takes in THREE dimensions to fly - even holding yourself flat and stable - let alone some of the more difficult maneuvers - because NONE of it is in the range of human experience...hardest thing I ever learned.

Lastly, my experience is mostly teaching novice and intermediate riders - Once they get to Advanced they have learned much of what I spoke of, and that's when the 'fine-tuning' comes in, and is pretty much at the point I'm at in MY riding....
 
#13 · (Edited)
I'd disagree a little. Stepping off the edge is the easy part, you have no idea how much fine motor skill it takes in THREE dimensions to fly - even holding yourself flat and stable - let alone some of the more difficult maneuvers - because NONE of it is in the range of human experience...hardest thing I ever learned.....
You know what? You're right and I stand corrected.

You do need fine motor movements in falling to mother earth at terminal velocity. >:)

PS: I did parachuting when I was in the military so I know what you mean.
 
#25 ·
I just finised Level 1 today, and I low-sided 3 times, twice on the same turn and once on the turn right after that.

What I've taken away from them is that your tyres matter. Yes, I'm an idiot for pushing the Metzler Roadtec R7's on the wrong profile. But here's my lesson:

- Get proper tyres fitted that 2-3mm ride height difference, is a difference. I got these because I had to balance between getting track tyres and an in-between but I do use my RR for commuting to work too.

- I did push them hard but also I learnt that I wasn't as feathery on the bars as I originally thought. The first 2 crashes was because I was still steering and trying to roll on the gas - steering unconsciously. As Code calls them, SR's.

- The 3rd low side came because tyres weren't warmed up. I'd try and tell the lean angles, but if you've gone for CSS, you're to tape your speedo up. But if I estimate, I'd say 45° then boom, tarmac.

- The last session on looking before doing helped plenty, that and my more cautiousness from my now worn out sliders.

So when Code says it's a sequence of events (sorry for lack of verbatim), the 3 low-sides did teach me that. I.e.: steering while getting on the gas might get you intimate with tarmac. Looking back, had I used the 5th session's "look where you want to go" I probably would have changed entry speeds, lean angle, rolling on the gas timing, the whole bunch, and saved my sliders & onesie.

I did also watch a guy try to trail brake into the same bend, got his butt off the seat, must have hit the brakes more since he came that bit closer, low side. Poor guy flipped the rental.

So I do say, it does make sense that it usually isn't a stand-alone cause.

Life's an adventure, doing it at 190mph just gets you more places faster.
 
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#32 ·
Life's an adventure, doing it at 190mph just gets you more places faster.
Right...places like the trees, the ambulance, the hospital, the morgue.... ;)
 
#36 ·
I look at riding this way: I don't want to be able to ride faster, I want to be able to ride BETTER, and the speed will come as a byproduct.

I want to be able to hit all the apexes perfectly, not just for that corner, but for the combination of all that I see. I want to have better vision to better see and road surface issues or debris that could bring me down. I want to better be able to judge roadside animals, pedestrians, cagers, and the crazy f#cking bicyclists we're now infested with here in CO. I want to know what they're going to do before they do it. I want to be better able to just traffic conditions, based on the type of intersections, merges, and traffic flow. I want to be better able to read weather conditions, on the road, and in the sky, to be able to better avoid sketchy conditions. I want to have better, more instinctive bike control, so that when something DOES happen (and it will), I have a greater chance of saving it.

I would rather have a larger margin of safety than faster speed, but I think that the former always brings with it the latter.

If I can be better at all this, then I consider that I've become a better RIDER.....and I'm STILL learning.

Best wishes out there! :)
 
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