Raise the front, flip the eccentric (on rear) most likely.
81 - 100 of 144 Posts
It's winter! :grin2:I'm amazed that a simple question sparked 8 pages of discussion! LOL
"the track dried out for the race"yea I saw that, pretty impressive even in the rain!
2017 @ Road Atlanta
QT:
SBK 1:24.555
STK1 1:25.503
SSP 1:27.917
STK6 1:30.067
KTM RC 1:48.295
WERA 1:29.987
Nate Kern: QT 1:32.523/ race best lap 1:31.567
7 sec slower than sbk and 6 sec slower than stk1.
Well, the story is much much better than the lap times...
ROFLOL....
>
Duuuuude, did you actually read the whole story?"the track dried out for the race"
2017 @ Road Atlanta
QT:
SBK 1:24.555
STK1 1:25.503
SSP 1:27.917
STK6 1:30.067
KTM RC 1:48.295
WERA 1:29.987
Nate Kern: QT 1:32.523/ race best lap 1:31.567
7 sec slower than sbk and 6 sec slower than stk1.
Well, the story is much much better than the lap times...
I think not.
The bike still had all the street equipment onboard, except for the mirrors and turn signals.
Lights (head and tail) were unplugged, but still onboard. Kickstand was safety-wired, up.
STOCK Suspension internals.
Nate Kern has not actively competed on an actual, fully race prepped Superbike in quite some time.
On that day, with other riders who HAVE been actively racing non-stop (Tim Bemisderfer is no slouch) Kern did very well, to come 3rd.
Even though the track dried for the race, the overall weather conditions, were NOT conducive to nearing or improving lap record pace.
Even if conditions were optimum, and his bike had been fully setup to the razor's edge of the SBK specs, it would still be unlikely, a racer who has essentially retired for several years, would come within a couple of seconds of track record pace.
A pace that would have been set, in most likely, muuuuch better conditions, by an active racer, who had not recently come out of "retirement" to see what could be achieved, with a near showroom stock motorcycle.
@speedfinn
One more nugget for you to digest...
The times you referenced are like comparing IDM spec bikes to WSBK bikes.
WERA bikes' best time versus SBK (MotoAmerica bikes) are about as similar as the example I pointed to above.
Again, Kern's bike was still wearing a lot of OEM street equipment, with some good rubber, and a smidgeon of extra power, maybe 10-15lbs lighter than the 460 lb wet weight of a showroom bike.
Again it had stock suspension, and an "old guy" riding it. Came third, and a couple seconds off the best WERA times, by a guy who has not been regularly racing for some time.
One more nugget for you to digest...
The times you referenced are like comparing IDM spec bikes to WSBK bikes.
WERA bikes' best time versus SBK (MotoAmerica bikes) are about as similar as the example I pointed to above.
Again, Kern's bike was still wearing a lot of OEM street equipment, with some good rubber, and a smidgeon of extra power, maybe 10-15lbs lighter than the 460 lb wet weight of a showroom bike.
Again it had stock suspension, and an "old guy" riding it. Came third, and a couple seconds off the best WERA times, by a guy who has not been regularly racing for some time.
Based on the excerpt, it could have been a number of things - raising the rear, raising the front and the rear more (raising the entire bike) or lowering the front by raising the forks through the triple tree. With that said, even a 1mm change can make a big difference. Even just dropping your front preload will create a geometry change because it will sit lower in the stroke.Yeah, I wonder how Nate feels about bottoming out the forks...doubt it..
There is, however, one comment made in that article that does bring into mind "what did they do?"
-----------
With Kerns’ feedback and the information gathered from the datalogger, we decided on a geometry change that would help Kern flick the bike from side to side and corner with better front end feedback.
----------
Front end feedback, corner entry and flickability is what I've felt, and heard from others (Disalvo) is a downside to the S1000RR, so I'm wondering exactly what they did to 'change the geometry'....only thing I can think of on a stock bike would be to raise (or lower) the front forks..and I'm betting lower to make the tail higher than the nose....
The point, is that the bike was stock and was competing against bikes that are not stock, and despite its (alleged) limitations for race duties, was still competitive."the track dried out for the race"yea I saw that, pretty impressive even in the rain!
2017 @ Road Atlanta
QT:
SBK 1:24.555
STK1 1:25.503
SSP 1:27.917
STK6 1:30.067
KTM RC 1:48.295
WERA 1:29.987
Nate Kern: QT 1:32.523/ race best lap 1:31.567
7 sec slower than sbk and 6 sec slower than stk1.
Well, the story is much much better than the lap times...
Additionally, a lot of people have stated
that the DDC is not suitable for track work, but putting in a 3rd at a decent level of competition with minimal setup time would suggest otherwise.
With that said, they did have the RCK which provides higher levels of adjustability. I get the impression that the difference in feel is what pushes people towards conventional suspension, not necessarily the ability of the suspension to work.
Admittedly, we don't see WSBK teams using the electronic suspension and with the likes of Ohlins kit with years and years of experience and data, I don't see it making inroads any time soon.
AFAIK, WSBK bikes can only use systems which are in stock bike AND approved by all (major) WSBK manufactures. So, if one stock make/model is missing electronic suspension, it can not be approved/allowed to be used by other make/models. And it must be removed from a WSBK bike, even if it is in stock model.Admittedly, we don't see WSBK teams using the electronic suspension and with the likes of Ohlins kit with years and years of experience and data, I don't see it making inroads any time soon.
It wasn't the question, but the answer that sparked all the discussion...I'm amazed that a simple question sparked 8 pages of discussion! LOL
I was hoping I'd hear what the specifics were....normally raising the rear in relation to the front - or lowering the front a little...helps improve the tip in...but for every improvement, there is a price to pay elsewhere....Raise the front, flip the eccentric (on rear) most likely.
2017:AFAIK, WSBK bikes can only use systems which are in stock bike AND approved by all (major) WSBK manufactures. So, if one stock make/model is missing electronic suspension, it can not be approved/allowed to be used by other make/models. And it must be removed from a WSBK bike, even if it is in stock model.Admittedly, we don't see WSBK teams using the electronic suspension and with the likes of Ohlins kit with years and years of experience and data, I don't see it making inroads any time soon.
f) Electronic suspension:
i) No aftermarket or prototype electronically-controlled suspensions maybe used. Electronically-controlled suspension may only be used if already present on the production model of the homologated motorcycle.
ii) The electronically-controlled valves must remain as homologated. The shims, spacers and fork/shock springs not connected with these valves can be changed.
iii) The ECU for the electronic suspension must remain as homologated and cannot receive any motorcycle track position or sector information; the suspension cannot be adjusted relative to track position.
iv) The electronic interface between the rider and the suspension must remain as on the homologated motorcycle. It is allowed to remove or disable this rider interface.
v) The original suspension system must work safely in the event of an electronic failure.
vi) Electro-magnetic fuid systems which change the viscosity of the suspension fuid(s) during operation are not permitted.
2018:
f. Electronic suspension cannot be used:
Up until this season coming the DDC has been permitted.
DDC gets sector information therefore was disallowed in 2017 and prior2017:
iii) The ECU for the electronic suspension must remain as homologated and cannot receive any motorcycle track position or sector information; the suspension cannot be adjusted relative to track position.
This guy isn't bottomed out, (zoom in to fork stanchion -it's ultra hi res 2***x1***) yet his rear end is off the ground, which seems to indicate he's still applying max braking, and not easing off from having bottomed out.Ok, more popcorn!
Let's assume that you want to avoid bottoming out because it makes you crash and burn etc. And lets's use the 80/20%-rule.
20%*120 mm = 24 mm. If full compression travel is 80 mm, then we have 56 mm to cope with weight transfer (1347.69 N) and 1.2 G braking force (1032.21 N). Air spring at 96 mm maybe about 2*170N = 340 N.
1347.69 + 1032.21 - 340 => 2039.9 N / 56 mm => 36.43 N/ mm /2 = you need 18.21 N/ mm front springs. Pogo-stick ...anyone?
How about if sag is only 30 mm? Then you need "only" 15.45 N / mm springs.
Additionally to that, let's "double" the air spring by rising the oil level 140 mm -> 110 mm. Air spring at 96 mm maybe about 2*250N = 500 N. Then you need "only" 14.24 N / mm springs.
So, it is doable (custom made front springs), if you want to destroy all reasonable functionality of the front end, just to be able to avoid bottoming out. ...And if you hit a big bump, your front end will still bottom out, and you will die, or you get ebola at least and die later.
But, maybe now it is more clearer why bottoming out is unavoidable/ why the last millimeters of the suspension travel are crucial/ why the last thing you want to have in you track only bikes front end is hydraulic bottom out locks (which will destroy the last (usually) 20-25 millimeters of the front end suspension functionality).
He's won quite a few WSBK races too.:smile2:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j_tWX0X9fQnOIlkiyR03EYDvkkCObUnV/view?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j_tWX0X9fQnOIlkiyR03EYDvkkCObUnV/view?usp=drivesdk
He's Super Human !!!
He's Super Human !!!!
If we braked like that we would be Asphalt Surfing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm Bottomed Out,let's hash Religion,Politics,Blondes,Brunettes or Redheads or Whatever !!!
He's Super Human !!!!
If we braked like that we would be Asphalt Surfing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm Bottomed Out,let's hash Religion,Politics,Blondes,Brunettes or Redheads or Whatever !!!
I guess that he is not applying max braking (and not bottoming out), because of the lean angle.This guy isn't bottomed out, (zoom in to fork stanchion -it's ultra hi res 2***x1***) yet his rear end is off the ground, which seems to indicate he's still applying max braking, and not easing off from having bottomed out.
He's won quite a few WSBK races too.:smile2:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j_tWX0X9fQnOIlkiyR03EYDvkkCObUnV/view?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j_tWX0X9fQnOIlkiyR03EYDvkkCObUnV/view?usp=drivesdk
Pretty sure with that rear wheel off the deck he couldn't be braking much harder.... champ.I guess that he is not applying max braking (and not bottoming out), because of the lean angle.
Yeah...I was looking at my Ohlins...and wondering why they would bother with putting a measuring ring (a very expensive zip tie) on the fork if they were just going to recommend bottoming them out anyway....hummm....
A bit related to fork oil change.
How many of you who are riding on a track with stock front suspension know what is hydraulic bottom out locks and what it does to front end functionality?
Have you checked if your stock front end has hydraulic bottom out locks or not?
Or are you just staring the (maybe even the very expensive Ohlins one!) zip tie, and smiling, because it always stays "20% off from the bottom out"...
And in reality you might already be in a situation which is almost the same as mechanical bottoming out, and you just dont understand it.
BTW, I have a K-Tech "zip tie" in my front fork. Maybe that is why my front fork is bottomig out? Should a switch to Ohlins zip tie, would that help? Or how about if add Ohlins zip tie to the other front fork? Win-Win!?
You might have seen this one in Ohlins(!) guide:
![]()
How many of you who are riding on a track with stock front suspension know what is hydraulic bottom out locks and what it does to front end functionality?
Have you checked if your stock front end has hydraulic bottom out locks or not?
Or are you just staring the (maybe even the very expensive Ohlins one!) zip tie, and smiling, because it always stays "20% off from the bottom out"...
And in reality you might already be in a situation which is almost the same as mechanical bottoming out, and you just dont understand it.
BTW, I have a K-Tech "zip tie" in my front fork. Maybe that is why my front fork is bottomig out? Should a switch to Ohlins zip tie, would that help? Or how about if add Ohlins zip tie to the other front fork? Win-Win!?
You might have seen this one in Ohlins(!) guide:
81 - 100 of 144 Posts
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