[SRod321]

Figured I'd start it even if a bit early. Saw this article and one interesting thing to note for BMW fans is be prepared for more of the same. Baz comments on the rear grip being an issue last season. I remember commenting this past season on how you can literally see the BMW sliding coming out of corners because they can't cleanly put the power down. Looks like this season might be more of the same smh.

More worries for BMW as Baz claims ‘I could never fully trust the bike’

Loris Baz claims he could ‘never fully trust’ the BMW M 1000 RR in 2022 and that big changes are needed with regards to electronics and the chassis, if they’re going to be a competitive force in WorldSBK.

www.crash.net

 

[omasou]

Hummmm…sounds like the reason for the new slide control. Interesting that it not enough for him?

 

[Alex_UK]

Hummmm…sounds like the reason for the new slide control. Interesting that it not enough for him?

Nothing to do with road bike electronic features.

We get the benefit of previous years, developments not the other way around. The race bike could of had a steering angle sensor for years.

The issues he's talked of are not new, he's just speaking to the issues not resolved by the fancy new bodywork. The lack of geometry changes or extra chassis adjustability is less ideal.

 

[omasou]

Nothing to do with road bike electronic features.

We get the benefit of previous years, developments not the other way around. The race bike could of had a steering angle sensor for years.

The issues he's talked of are not new, he's just speaking to the issues not resolved by the fancy new bodywork. The lack of geometry changes or extra chassis adjustability is less ideal.

He very specifically said electronic features multiple times.

He stated... "big changes are needed with regards to electronics and the chassis" to improve rear wheel traction "But our basic problems are the lack of grip on the rear wheel and that we can't get the power to the ground when exiting corners."

 

[BMW_388]

I dont think some of you understand how the electronics package works for street vs real racing like WSBK. The factory release ECU is BMSO series. Then the BMW Motorrad MRCK is BMS2M series of ECU. Both are based on the TriCore TC1793 MPU, but how the data is in and out of the data channels sets up how and what sensors are on the bike.

The development of the front angle sensor is really based on the future of ABS PRO. The goal of safety is how can a low slide be prevented or even a high side, but the focus has been save the bike save the rider on low side slides. However what is the inverse of saving a low side slide is to create a control slide. Moto2 is the best example of control 'back it in' sliding on 2 wheels. 'Back it in " is a term that has been used since the days of motocross and even into sprint cars. I raced sprint cars 9 years on dirt and 2 years on asphalt. This is where you really learn car control and riding the cushion. Motocross it is riding the rut, or the berm. Front tires/tire pointing one way, and rear tires/tire doing it another way. So, a professional rider that really has the butt feel of sliding the rear on corner exit with excellent throttle control can now input the parameters in the TFT cluster and wick the throttle to WOT and hope for the best? or will MSC make you have so much confidence and rely on the best BMW Motorrad is trying to offer. I can come off corners sliding the rear out with no worries, but I have not mastered the entry of backing it in like we see so many Moto2 riders can. However,, once those Moto2 riders are in MotoGP they find out that keeping the front and rear pointed in the same direction is faster. So now all those electronics are fighting they previous knowledge and feel of backing it in the corner.

So the new software package is called Bosch MSC equipment .. and excellent video of the MSC is here and been around some time now.

Bosch MSC - Anti-Lowside Technology - Asphalt & Rubber

Rider aids like traction control and ABS continue to prove the notion that electronics are the new horsepower, and with the US debut of the KTM 1190 Adventure R just a couple months away, we learn that the hot new adventure-touring machine will debut the new Bosch Motorcycle Stability Control...

www.asphaltandrubber.com

Bosch MSC is now a FSC code for BMW ECU. This leads me to believe and will test on a 2020-2022 that FSC can become an upgrade. The only new device is the front steering angle sensor. K67 already has the 6 axis IMU.

 

[omasou]

Not disagreeing, that BMW may be using the front angle sensor and Bosch component to improve street riding safety by enhancing ABS Pro capabilities.

Slide control is an advance feature only available in the Race Pro modes and what is described really well here. So perhaps it's serving dual purposes?

 

[SRod321]

I think....i think.... what @BMW_388 is saying is that what's on our street bikes isn't what's on the WSBK bikes. We get the electronics AFTER they've been tested and used on the professional level and "adapted" for street use. I think they've BEEN using slide control and now for 2023 have added it for those who are able to use it but still, that doesn't help with the rear grip issue on corner exits which is my concern for the teams and I'm SURE it's their concern as well. I think he's also saying that slide control doesn't necessarily benefit the pro level riders who are used to "backing it in" without electronics. It's like traction control kicking in for a driver who is used to doing holeshots by dumping the clutch and modulating the accelerator manually. Now they have to adjust what he/she has been doing for YEARS because the ecu is trying to modulate it according to the data its receiving from various sensors. That's how it makes sense to me.

 

[omasou]

I think....i think.... what @BMW_388 is saying is that what's on our street bikes isn't what's on the WSBK bikes. We get the electronics AFTER they've been tested and used on the professional level and "adapted" for street use. I think they've BEEN using slide control and now for 2023 have added it for those who are able to use it but still, that doesn't help with the rear grip issue on corner exits which is my concern for the teams and I'm SURE it's their concern as well. I think he's also saying that slide control doesn't necessarily benefit the pro level riders who are used to "backing it in" without electronics. It's like traction control kicking in for a driver who is used to doing holeshots by dumping the clutch and modulating the accelerator manually. Now they have to adjust what he/she has been doing for YEARS because the ecu is trying to modulate it according to the data its receiving from various sensors. That's how it makes sense to me.

Thanks!

I understand racing is used to develop and prove out technologies that eventually trickle down to production. I also understand that professional racers typically disable a lot of electronic aids b/c the interfere more than they help.

When watching the 2023 S1000RR Almeria track reviews, it was practically unanimously stated that most riders, wouldn't be able to benefit from slide control, which led me to believe it was an advanced track rider feature vs. street feature. I was also getting the impression that on the motorcycle side that the electronics has evolved to a point where they were actually helping racers. Hence my question.

 

[SRod321]

I think it's getting there. A lot if the older generation racers probably aren't a fan because they have to adjust what they've been doing for years to try and reap the benefits of electronics and its a struggle where newer or younger guys who are coming up on the electronics end of the spectrum can adapt more easily because they don't have the "habits" or techniques of some of the older guys. Just spit balling here.

 

[Alex_UK]

Thanks!

I understand racing is used to develop and prove out technologies that eventually trickle down to production. I also understand that professional racers typically disable a lot of electronic aids b/c the interfere more than they help.

When watching the 2023 S1000RR Almeria track reviews, it was practically unanimously stated that most riders, wouldn't be able to benefit from slide control, which led me to believe it was an advanced track rider feature vs. street feature. I was also getting the impression that on the motorcycle side that the electronics has evolved to a point where they were actually helping racers. Hence my question.

Club racer, decent track dayer maybe. Not Redding and co. The slide control is more of a safety feature for when your amateur riding gets you in trouble.

 

[omasou]

So it appears Slide Control and Slide Assist are two different things. The first is for exiting turns and the other for entering turns (backing it in).

Dynamic Traction Control DTC with new Slide Control function using steering angle sensor.
The new feature of Dynamic Traction Control DTC is the Slide Control function. It allows the rider to select two preset drift angles for the traction control system when accelerating out of bends. Technically, this is achieved using a steering angle sensor. Up to the respective leaning angle, the traction control system allows slippage at the rear wheel when accelerating out of a bend, thus enabling rear wheel drift. When the preset steering angle value is reached, traction control intervenes, reduces slip and stabilises the motorcycle.

ABS Pro with new Brake Slide Assist and ABS Pro "Slick" setting functions.
The new Brake Slide Assist function is an important and very helpful innovation for race track riders. As in the new DTC Slide Control function, this new system is also based on steering angle sensors and allows the rider to set a specific drift angle for so-called braking drifts while sliding into corners at a maintained speed.

It also appears they are trying to address Baz’s complaint. Both the M1000R and S1000RR increased the rear sprocket size but only the M1000R talks about increased rear wheel traction?

Increased rear wheel traction in all gears is also provided by a shorter secondary gear ratio through the use of a sprocket with 47 teeth (S 1000 R: 45 teeth). In addition, the gear ratios of the 4th, 5th and 6th gears are shorter, which also benefits thrust and traction at the rear wheel.​

 

[Alex_UK]

Umm..ok but in WSBK, NOTHING is OEM.

ECU, different
Dash, different
Bodywork, different (silhouette copy only)
Suspension, different
Geometry, different
Wheels, different
Brakes, different
Final drive, different
Controls, different
Chassis, different (modifiable, look at how Yamaha and Kawasaki refinforce the head stock).
Swingarm, different (Kalex).

CoG, CoM, total weight all different.

The only things an OEM can do to influence things is to change the silhouette, change the chassis in terms of base stiffness, geometry/ range of adjustment and add more power.

Now having said all that I don't see what BMW have brought to the M1000RR in the chassis evolution. They added chassis flex buylt I can't see how thats fixing the core issues.

Time will tell

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[omasou]

Umm..ok but in WSBK, NOTHING is OEM.

ECU, different
Dash, different
Bodywork, different (silhouette copy only)
Suspension, different
Geometry, different
Wheels, different
Brakes, different
Final drive, different
Controls, different
Chassis, different (modifiable, look at how Yamaha and Kawasaki refinforce the head stock).
Swingarm, different (Kalex).

CoG, CoM, total weight all different.

The only things an OEM can do to influence things is to change the silhouette, change the chassis in terms of base stiffness, geometry/ range of adjustment and add more power.

Now having said all that I don't see what BMW have brought to the M1000RR in the chassis evolution. They added chassis flex buylt I can't see how thats fixing the core issues.

Time will tell

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I am not an expert. Yes, the items you list may be modified, heavily modified BUT the heart of the bike is still OE/production and EVERYTHING stands on that foundation.

Superbike World Championship (also known as WorldSBK, SBK, World Superbike, WSB, or WSBK) is a silhouette-class road racing series based on heavily modified production motorcycles, also known as superbike racing.​

​

The motorcycles that race in the championship are tuned versions of motorcycles available for sale to the public, by contrast with MotoGP where purpose built machines are used. MotoGP is the motorcycle world's equivalent of Formula One, whereas Superbike racing is similar to sports car racing.​

I believe the K67 M1000RR is pretty much tweaked and cannot do much more other than creating another non-street legal HP4 Race.

It appears the reason for the aggressive aero to increase top speed by 8-10 km/h, which would normally require an additional 10-15 HP to gain HP, since the engine appears to be maxed out. see post 348

S1000RR 2023 Update

The almighty Neeves had a lot of positive things to stay, I'm all the more excited now. But if he self proclaims he's not a skilled enough rider to use the slide/drift assist, I doubt I'll be able to able to get within spitting distance of it either :D

www.s1000rrforum.com

 

[SRod321]

But how does aero add horsepower??
Isn't aero for reduced drag on straights or increased downforce for better grip?

 

[omasou]

But how does aero add horsepower??
Isn't aero for reduced drag on straights or increased downforce for better grip?

You're correct, it’s not adding HP, it's increasing top speed. I corrected the post above.

In this video Sepp Mächler (Product manager for the RR) said @ 3:10 the new M1000RR aero can increase top speed by 8-10 km/h, which would normally require an additional 10-15 HP.​

 

[z00]

No faith in BMW

Davies: 'I had many doubts about BMW, made me more convinced to stay at Ducati'

Despite former team-mate Scott Redding trying to convince Chaz Davies to become a rider coach at BMW following his glittering WorldSBK career, the Welsh rider remained at Ducati after claiming he had ‘doubts about BMW’.

www.crash.net

 

[simes007us]

any serious racer doesn't use the standard electronics. The new slide control is there for casuals on track days and club racing

 

[Fbto]

Does the WSBK app show the testing videos? Live or at least a recap?


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[Alex_UK]

BMW switch to Brembo brakes for 2023.

Kalex swingarm in from the get go (as you'd expect)

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[Fbto]

WSBK Live timing

LiveTiming

live.crono-jerez.com

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