Tuning questions

[cloudy]

This got rather long winded and disjointed, so I apologize to everyone in advance.

I've recently removed my Frankenpipe exhaust (home built "Wye" pipe w/stock can) and replaced it with a Leo Vince full race system. As I already had a custom Dyno Map made for Frankenpipe installed on my PCV, I figured I'd add an Autotune and remap things instead of putting it back on the Dyno. While the bike runs great with the new pipe and Autotune, and drive ability is much improved, the more I think about things the more questions I have.

As I understand it, horsepower is ECU restricted in the first three gears (I've read 120/140/160hp respectively if I remember correctly). I've also read that the throttle response for the butterflies relative to the TPS request varies in all four modes (Race, Slick, Rain Modes..what's the Bike really doing.. Here is what we found.), with full opening occurring faster the more towards "Slick Mode" you get.

I have a switch installed so I can run the base map I have in the PCV, or switch to running using the on-the-fly trims the Autotune makes, and I'll probably be adding the "each gear Autotune function" in the near future. I can see how the different gears might require different PCV Maps (trim generated) to make the best power.

I've read a lot about what folks use for trim percentage settings (I'm currently using 15%) and target AFR's (13.2:1 currently for me), along with some discussions regarding how often to accept the trims, dropping the trim percentage # over time, etc.. What I haven't read anything about is whether anyone uses a particular mode to develop trims destined for subsequent acceptance to the PCV map. It seems the trims provided by the Autotune could be quite different depending on the mode being used, and while one can always run with the Autotune making necessary adjustments, I'd suspect one particular mode might be the best one to use to make PCV map changes.

As an example:
Suppose you're running with the trims set for 5% and are using a PCV map that was created using mostly sport mode. Would on-the-fly trim adjustments using only a 5% setting really be enough to correctly adjust if you then switch to "Slick Mode", and hammer the stuffing out of the bike? I'd wonder the same thing if the PCV map was made using "Slick Mode", then you ran around in "Sport Mode" taking it easy. Would the 5% trim be able to lean things out enough for best output?

I'm probably over thinking this, but maybe someone has some thoughts if you can see where I'm going with this.

[Sextaafondo]

Hi Cloudy, all 4 modes have not only differences in butterflies and variable stacks actuation, but also in both fuel injection and ignition timing.
This renders useless a PC5 map set in one mode to be used in another one.

But, since Slick is the, lets say, "full power" mode, why would you want to set maps for the other restricted modes which are there to improve rideability in different situations, by reducing and smoothing power output?

[cloudy]

Originally Posted by Sextaafondo

Hi Cloudy, all 4 modes have not only differences in butterflies and variable stacks actuation, but also in both fuel injection and ignition timing.
This renders useless a PC5 map set in one mode to be used in another one.

But, since Slick is the, lets say, "full power" mode, why would you want to set maps for the other restricted modes which are there to improve rideability in different situations, by reducing and smoothing power output?

This is pretty much what I was wondering about in the original post, I guess, and I'd assume it would also apply to a map generated on a Dynojet Dyno. Seems it would make sense to keep the 20% correction plugged in so the Autotune can lean things out enough for the more restricted modes then?


I don't want to set maps for the other restricted modes, but I guess one should just run with the autotune "live" and making on-the-fly adjustments when running in those modes, but only accepting trims generated in slick mode.

I guess the smartest thing to do is to enable the individual gear mapping feature in the Autotune, and have a new base map made on a Dynojet Dyno for each gear (especially 4th/5th/6th as they're a bit difficult to run out on the street ). The Autotune could then do its thing starting from a good reference point.

In the interest of saving money and wear and tear, I'll probably just run what I have now, only accept trims made when I'm running in Slick Mode, and keep the 20% trim factor active and see how that shakes out.

Thanks for the thoughts.

[cloudy]

fwiw I just spoke to Tech support at Dynojet about these issues and was told the following:

They suggest making the PCV map specifically for the mode you run and save it to the laptop and PCV, and seemed to indicate I should make one for each mode so I could upload the proper one if I'm not running in Slick mode.

I was under the impression that the switch I'd installed would allow me to switch off the Autotune and revert to the saved map, but the guy said any trims the Autotune had made, even though not saved to the PCV Map, would still be active within the PCV map even with the Autotune turned off? He said the best thing to do when switching the Autotune off would be to go in and clear all trims too if I wanted to use the "Slick Mode" map in other modes and let the Autotune make on-the-fly adjustments.

Seems there is something missing here or I'm just too stupid to grasp things properly, as I'd assumed the Autotune would adequately adjust on-the-fly for running different modes using the "Slick Mode" created map, regardless of what trims it had created before switching power modes.

Feel free to enlighten me ............... (Nigel/1000rr/whomever)

Edit: Does anyone have a good PCV map they'd be willing to share that was made for a Leo Vince SBK full exhaust with a race BMC filter. I'm thinking the one I had made for Frankenpipe might not be the best starting point for the Autotune to work with.

[Nigel]

You are right that the AT would adjust if you switch modes, but remember it needs time. You need to ride at every throttle position for all revs to get a good map. But I cannot see why you would want this for road or rain, and slick and race are pretty similar in terms of butterfly position, so you would be sorted there.

Nigel.

[Sextaafondo]

Nigel, I was in the same thinking as you about the subject.
What I do certainly know at this moment is the bike will suffer from a slower reaction time in learning mode. This is noticeable specially in slick mode. In other bikes this is noticeable as well.

If things work as they described to Cloudy on the phone, then the toggle switch is just an On-Off learn mode switch. It won't allow to go back to the base map as it was before the leaning session unless you clear out the trims.
The switch will account for the slower PCV output in learn mode by releasing processing resources.

Will talk this with my tuner.

[cloudy]

Originally Posted by Nigel

You are right that the AT would adjust if you switch modes, but remember it needs time. You need to ride at every throttle position for all revs to get a good map. But I cannot see why you would want this for road or rain, and slick and race are pretty similar in terms of butterfly position, so you would be sorted there.
Nigel.

Thanks for the feedback Nigel.

That's rather difficult to do on the street in 4th/5th/6th gear, so it seems like it should be done on the Dyno again with the new pipe to get a good base map? If so, I'm wondering if creating maps for all gears is even worth it, as the Dyno time required will probably get a bit expensive.

I generally only run in race or slick mode, so am not too worried about rain or sport modes anyway, but wonder if the map created using race or slick mode wouldn't end up being excessively rich in the "lesser" modes.

Originally Posted by Sextaafondo

Nigel, I was in the same thinking as you about the subject.
What I do certainly know at this moment is the bike will suffer from a slower reaction time in learning mode. This is noticeable specially in slick mode. In other bikes this is noticeable as well.

If things work as they described to Cloudy on the phone, then the toggle switch is just an On-Off learn mode switch. It won't allow to go back to the base map as it was before the leaning session unless you clear out the trims.
The switch will account for the slower PCV output in learn mode by releasing processing resources.

Will talk this with my tuner.

Look forward to hearing what you learn, Sextaafondo.

It seems to me my tuning has deteriorated since I started saving trims, so I'll probably reload the map I started with and keep the bike in slick mode for the time being. Since I installed the Leo Vince and the Autotune a week or two ago I've run it in sport, race, and slick mode, and saved trims as I went along, not realizing what a mess it might be creating. Before I "improved" things with the new pipe and Autotune, the bike would pogo wheelie the whole way to redline in second, third, and fourth gear, but doesn't now. Low end response is better (0-70% throttle in the first three gears if I had to guess), which I assume is because the Autotune has had adequate time to adjust for the AFR's I put in the table, as most of my riding time is spent in that range.

This may be why my Dyno tuner isn't too fond of the Autotune. I was at his shop one day when a guy came in with a hot rodded 4-wheeler that wouldn't run right. Turned out he had an Autotune on it, and when my Dyno tuner disconnected it and made a quick map on the Dyno, the guy left a happy man.