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Metzeler RacetecRR K3s/K2s Vs michelin power cup evo

13K views 38 replies 13 participants last post by  skids69 
#1 ·
Anyone ran either of these tires? What mileage to expect for track and canyons riding?
A friend of mine switched to Michelin power cup evo from Dunlops and very happy with them. But I don't know how long they will last.

Also, I could not find either tire at jakewilson or bikebandits. Where to buy those tires from?
 
#4 ·
Wow, the price at my local track is cheaper. I don't know why most tire shop retailers don't carry higher end tires.
Also SC3 is coming out this year. So many damn options.
 
#6 ·
I could not find either tire at jakewilson or bikebandits.
Really? Sometimes it helps to use the search bar on sites, rather than trying to "lookup" by model through the menu trees. STG is usually one of the decent retailers of trackday oriented rubber, but there are several others too. Channel your inner google....

http://www.bikebandit.com/tires-tub...S_CIpwoOyOJ-pOWPI4JgORlKG-cObYMV2thoC8tjw_wcB

Metzeler Racetec RR K2 Soft Tires - RevZilla

Metzeler Racetec RR Tires - Rear - Competition Accessories

Chaparral Motorsports - Search Results for metzeler racetec rr
 
#10 ·
Really? Sometimes it helps to use the search bar on sites, rather than trying to "lookup" by model through the menu trees. STG is usually one of the decent retailers of trackday oriented rubber, but there are several others too. Channel your inner google....
Ya I looked up by model. Thanks Google ninja!


Remember when using the track compound tires, they are at premium grip for 8 heat cycles. Hence they may do fine on the street for a while but will suck once you head back to the track. 8 heat cycles is for the Michelin evo series. Other manufacturers have roughly the same number for their track series
Tire guy at the track told my friend to put warmers on tires for about 45min. But did not mention anything about heat cycles. My friend did ask him about riding the street and tire guy said tires will work fine.

I have to agree with Dr. Ioannis's post. Never have I heard more talk about heat cycles than at the Michelin tire booth. Dunlop has a very casual attitude about it, the comment I remember is the rep telling me that the tire would be worn out long before the heat cycles became a factor. Perhaps it's different for Michelins?
It might be. Do you know what compounds your friends run on RR K tires? I'm thinking of doing K3 (hard) on rear, K2 on front.
 
#7 ·
Remember when using the track compound tires, they are at premium grip for 8 heat cycles. Hence they may do fine on the street for a while but will suck once you head back to the track. 8 heat cycles is for the Michelin evo series. Other manufacturers have roughly the same number for their track series


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#8 · (Edited)
Now about the heat cycles. I have read a thread from Steve Brubaker who is for USA the National Distributor for DUNLOP motorcycle racing tires.


"Now lets tackle the issue of HEAT CYCLES.


Heat cycling of the tire is a very confusing and misunderstood area. I will say that I have heard that other brands are well known for "going off" or "heat cycling" and I will leave that conversation to another thread another day.

For now I'm going to stick with Dunlop's, as that is what I know.

Do tires heat cycle? Yes

Is this the most important factor in tires? NO! in fact it is not very significant, and very over emphasized.

Certainly making a tire go from 250 deg to negative 10 deg over and over is not the best thing you can do to a tire, but consider that placing it on a warmer, at 190 deg, for 8 hours is not any better. Both extremes are not the best for the tire.

We all hear about "Heat Cycle", but almost never do we hear talk about the thickness of the tire, or tread depth/wear. Fact: The thicker the tread rubber, the more grip. The thinner the tread rubber, the less grip. So as you ride on the tire, session after session, the rubber is getting thinner and there is less and less grip. Often this is mistaken for "heat cycle", and the rider now places his attention on his warmers and not on the real important factor of how much tread rubber is left on his tire.

Odd rituals start to crop up regarding tire warmers: Riders come back to the pits and RUSH to put their warmers on and crank them up to full, all in an attempt to "stop the heat cycle!". When buying used tires, riders rate the tire by how many heat cycles it has, not the tread depth.

It is a mistake to emphasize heat cycling over tread depth, with Dunlops.

So lets get real, which tire would you want to buy:

1) A tire with 10 laps and never had warmers?
2) A tire with 8 sessions and was on the warmers all day (8 hours) and never cooled down?
3) A new tire that was on a warmer for 8 hours only and never used?

I personally would pick #3 because it has the thickest tread, and #1 would be my second pick because it has less laps and probably more tread than #2. Notice how the heat cycles does not play into my personal choice in this matter, but the tread thickness does.

You can use a D211GPA or any other Dunlop tire without warmers and have no problems. ( Make sure you do heat the tire up for the first couple laps before you get with it.)

You might have a very small decrease in grip or life, but that would be very small and most likely not noticeable over the 1-5 track days you will get out of the tires. You would be spliting hairs on the performance level and tire life with/without warmers. Even if you were to do back to back tests, you would find that if in just 1 session in the life of the tire, you went 5 seconds faster, that would make more of a difference than heat cycling because you used more tread rubber in that session.

Heat cycles are not a total myth, but they do not make as big a difference as the internet would lead you to believe.

Tire warmers are good thing to have if you want to get going right out of the pits. They are not a requirement. Note that our recommendation for track day warmers has you putting the warmers on after a session and not plugging them in right away. This is so you don't needlessly force heat into the tire continuously for no reason. http://www.dunlopracing.com/Warmers.pdf

Ever notice that the chatter about heat cycles started about the time tire warmers became cheaper and more readily available? Do you think there could be an urban legend that started because of this increased supply?"

The thread can be found here
 
#9 ·
I have to agree with Dr. Ioannis's post. Never have I heard more talk about heat cycles than at the Michelin tire booth. Dunlop has a very casual attitude about it, the comment I remember is the rep telling me that the tire would be worn out long before the heat cycles became a factor. Perhaps it's different for Michelins?
 
#12 ·
Street tires don't worry about heat cycles. Every track tire because of the compounds used the heat cycles matter
Power cup evo (not slicks, DOT tire) uses the same compound as slick version, but has grooves/DOT approved. So would heat cycle apply to it as well? Is this specific to Michelin tires?
 
#13 ·
According to the David grey from sport bike tire service the cup evo and evo slick use the same compounds and the 8 heat cycles for optimum grip applies. All of the other tires aka the pilot power 3, pilot road etc are street compounds sold at dealers and do not lose grip by excessive heat cycles. The cup evo and evo slicks are considered race tires sold through people who sell them as race tires only even though they say dot approved.

On a side note the Dunlop 211 gpa is dot approved but is a race tire. Anyone who has ridden one on the street will tell you they suck unless they are ridden hard to keep the heat in the tire.


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#14 ·
Good to know. I think I'm gonna stick to RR Ks tires. They don't have this heat cycle drama.

I know at least 2 people who hated Dunlop GPAs. They replaced them after one track day. Actually, my friend is selling a set for a great price. If anyone is interested let me know. Not even 4 sessions on the set.
 
#16 ·
What PSIs are used on K2s? Same as K3s? Most track tire providers don't sell Metzelers, so cannot get a good answer.
 
#18 ·
Well, you don't have to care about anything like heat cycles or even tread so much but just check your tyres and you will notice a difference and what great cycles actually are.

I have done 10 trackdays on a Metzeler M5 back in the days and suddenly the tyre looks like polished...put a finger nail mark in it and it wouldn't go away. Enough tread left that tyre sinply changed it's compound due to too any heat cycles since oils are leaving the material under heat and getting hard. You see the blue discoloration from time to time...so it's best even with street compound tyres on a track to put warmers on so that's 1 heat cycle a day and not 1 per session!
 
#19 ·
Clearly all manufactures have their own recommendations for their products. Pirelli recommendations on warmers are different than Dunlop.

http://www.trackaddix.com/PirelliTireWarmerRecommendations.pdf

They recommend the warmers be on but at a lower temp 135-155 between sessions. 175 20 minutes before going out. If a Michelin rep said 8 heat cycles, I would believe it for those tires.
 
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#27 ·
I use Michelin power cup evo tyres exclusively and have never suffered from heat cycle effects.
Mostly used for track normally without tyre warmers btw, and occasional street use.
Michelin don't have much to say about heat cycles in my experience, and a lot of the issues with wear etc depend more on the rider and the track being ridden than anything else.
 
#31 ·
@Piper could you share where do you buy Cup evo tires? Since they're race tires, not many retailers carry them. I found them in a couple of places but were way more expensive than $360 (120/70, 200/55) I was quoted at the track.

After talking to more track people the verdict was to give cup evos a shot before I start with RR K2s.
 
#33 ·
I was quoted $360, not 300. At the track, tire guy.

Yes, Sport bike has evos for $420 a set. In UK a set goes for $330, too bad shipping is $70.

Any other race tire online sellers?
 
#35 · (Edited)
First, if your riding hard enough to need race tires on the street - you probably should take it to the track before you get hurt... Q3's are fine for street us, and you can't hardly beat the price.

I've ridden both Dunlops and Michelins as trackday tires (I do not recommend for street use) and here is my IMHO:

- Dunlops: The Dunlop is a much harder tire than the Michelin (a pain in the ass on a No-Mar to change). I think their idea is to have a different profile, but have it not deflect so much in the lean). Dunlops works best when they are hot, in hot conditions - when they are warmed up, they rock. When you have to be careful is when it's cold (under 50 air temp); until you get a couple of laps in them they don't have much grip. And I think they have a little longer life. I've never worried about how much I heat cycle them, because the rear's not likely to last more than two weekends and the front maybe 3. But when they are hot, I'm impressed and very comfortable on their lips.

- Michelin Evo: They are a much softer tire than the Dunlop, I think because they want it to deflect and put more surface of the tire on the ground. MUCH easier to get on a rim. The Evo seems to do much better in colder weather than the Dunlops (which is an advantage when coaching because we frequently spend a lot of time off warmers and not riding fast enough to keep them good and warm). I am very pleased with their performance. Not sure they last as long as the Dunlop.

So, given these two choices, I'd rather run the Evo when coaching or when it's cooler, but when it's blazing hot and I'm trying to improve my riding, I'd give Dunlop the advantage.. Having said that, I'm nothing more than an Mid A rider, and the faster guys might disagree - Pimped C6 knows waaay more about this than I.
 
#36 ·
@skydivr

Yes, that's the same feedback I got as well. I don't have warmers, getting electricity at tracks has been hectic. So I'll only get warmers when I get a good generator as well.

I'm going to go with Evo cups. Where do you buy yours from?
 
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