Reference Points

[FlamingLips]

Unless there are big "X"'s on the track marking your line, how does one go about picking out the reference points? For example, on turn-in, do you pick out a track feature that is before the turn-in or at. I struggle with finding the initial turn-in reference point.

[misti]

Originally Posted by FlamingLips

Unless there are big "X"'s on the track marking your line, how does one go about picking out the reference points? For example, on turn-in, do you pick out a track feature that is before the turn-in or at. I struggle with finding the initial turn-in reference point.

It comes down to a bit of trail and error when riding on a track. You usually pick something on the track AT the point you want to turn your bike in but you are not always right the first few times around. Once you pick something you use the line it gave you, and your throttle control as a gauge of whether or not it was a good RP or not and move/change it from there.

When I hit a track for the first time I pick RP's where I think I should turn, then make a mental note of how the corner worked out for me. If I'm racing there I'll draw the track and mark my RP's down and move/adjust them from there.

What about working backwards as well? Sometimes I look into the turn to where I want to apex and use that as an indication for where to turn the bike.

What other methods do you guys use to find turn point RP's?

Misti

[1000RR]

For me, it is mostly track features. One particular turn, I look through the turn as much as I can and when I see a particular point down the turn, I know it's time to tip in... it all happens very quickly and as you get use to the track, you almost seem to quit looking at the points, and I think your subconscious picks up. Of course if you got someone on your tail or you're on someone elses tail trying to make a pass or not be passed, then much of those RPs get shoved to the side

[chipset]

My last track day, I was simply riding the way I wanted to ride. I had been to the track a fair number of times and there are three corners that are nearly identical.

The track school put turn markers out. I noticed I was simply riding my ride and I kept seeing the turn markers in my peripheral vision. I was nice, I know the track well enough that I don't really need them.

However, on new tracks, you have to have them. As Misti says, you see one, use it, and adjust as needed. I use brake and turn markers and I am just now getting exit markers down.

[misti]

Originally Posted by chipset

I know the track well enough that I don't really need them.

However, on new tracks, you have to have them. As Misti says, you see one, use it, and adjust as needed. I use brake and turn markers and I am just now getting exit markers down.

I think this might be a bit of a misconception here, that if you know the track well you don't "need" RP's.

I think that in order to go fast and in order to coax yourself to go faster on a track, especially one you know really well, you need to have many really really solid reference points, even on a track that you already know well, the more specific you get, the more RP's you have the faster and better you can go.

If you have an EXACT point to look at, that you absolutely KNOW is where you want and need your bike to go, then you become much more confident and secure in knowing that you are going to get there. The more of these solid and specific reference points you have, the more certain you are of your location, the more confident you are, the more willing you are to push the limit etc etc....

Even though you already "know" the track, don't you think that knowing it better would make you faster?

How many RP's would you want for a given turn and how could you then use these RP's to help you go faster?

Misti

[lizatailor23]

The fixed reference point is usually given, such as (0,0,0) in Cartesian space or the Equator and Prime Meridian when using a map.

[skapan]

I have to agree with Misti. If you "know the track" and ride in your comfort zone you could be continuing to use a less than optimal line, unless you are on the podium every weekend. RP's allow you the confidence to ride faster than you normally would, and to make that the new "norm". Watching other riders and adopting their RP's if and when suitable for you will also make you a faster rider. Just make sure you use something stationary as an RP - I remember a story of someone using a cow, then the cow moved.

[edchung]

I'm slightly confused because there are two questions here. Are you asking:


1. How do you mark your turn in point? (Big X?)

I was originally taught to use markers on the outside of the track - like the numbered-posts or the outside-curbing. "Turn-in one-second before the 1 sign," or "turn-in at the second-to-last red box".

But for me, my first choice is a mark on the road - like a tar-snake or black-patch or something. I think this is easiest, since it's going to be in your immediate vision and (if it's on your inside) will be along your path of travel. "Turn in when I roll over the black line" or "when I see that crack, try to run it over". This has sometimes been detrimental to me, because I get stuck on sub-optimal reference points that are easy to see.

When the above isn't available, I'm trying a new method of "lining up two points". Like, "when the inside-apex of the turn lines up with the start of the exit curbing" or some-such. I haven't been so successful with this - I think I'm too terrified to add 1+1 while I'm holding on for dear life.


2. Or are you asking how do you choose a turn in point?

This is harder. Philosophically, the goal is to make choices that get you around the track the fastest - but how does anyone deconstruct their entire lap down to this single turn-in point?

Things I've heard told:

* Pick an exit-point, then move your turn-in point until you hit your exit point (at maximum speed, of course).
* Know your maximum speed and lean angle (with magic?), then move your turn-in point back until you almost fall off the track on exit.
* Pretend the track is half-width to identify a good line, then pick a turn-in point on the outside of the track that puts you in your 'good line'.
* Try every point.

Things I've done:

* Followed someone else and took their turn-in point.
* Missed my turn-in point.


-E

[MotoMadMan]

another thing I thought was great advice is pick 2 turns that are on opposite ends of the track to work on. This way while you are thinking about how your turn in point worked or not you can get set up for your second turn. This also makes it easier to focus on one turn at a time. All part of breaking it down into something smaller (1 turn at a time) so you can process and learn. If you try to think about all your turns, all your points where you start to brake, start to gas, get on the brakes, ect. you are going to go mad. It is too much at once.

[LEEnBMW]

I've learned that RP's are about consistency. To improve your times you must know what you are doing and where you are doing it in each corner. If you just ride around "by the seat of your pants" it will be hard to be consistent. Once you establish RP's for a corner and become consistent, then you can change them as you improve or try new lines. The stop watch will tell you whether it's better or worse.

RP's in corners for braking, turn in, apex, throttle pick up, and exit are all important in case you want to change them. They are especially important on biind hills and corners. Also having RP's for shift points is useful on straights. Sooner upshifts out of corners means you are exiting faster. It may even move you to change a tooth on your gearing.

Anything stationary that is visually easy to pick up are the best, but anything works. I've used tar spots, seams, patches, curbing, cones, walls and rails. I use the timing tower at Barber out of T2...LoL. Many new riders use the faster guy in front as a RP, then they are lost if they pass them. They don't know HIS RP's.

At new tracks when practice time is limited I work on the fast corners and corners that exit onto straights first and tight slow ones last. The faster ones have bigger impacts on your laptimes.

I guess all this is why I think most people think RP's are a must to get faster....