Reference Points

[misti]

Originally Posted by edchung

I'm slightly confused because there are two questions here. Are you asking:


1. How do you mark your turn in point? (Big X?)

I was originally taught to use markers on the outside of the track - like the numbered-posts or the outside-curbing. "Turn-in one-second before the 1 sign," or "turn-in at the second-to-last red box".

But for me, my first choice is a mark on the road - like a tar-snake or black-patch or something. I think this is easiest, since it's going to be in your immediate vision and (if it's on your inside) will be along your path of travel. "Turn in when I roll over the black line" or "when I see that crack, try to run it over". This has sometimes been detrimental to me, because I get stuck on sub-optimal reference points that are easy to see.

When the above isn't available, I'm trying a new method of "lining up two points". Like, "when the inside-apex of the turn lines up with the start of the exit curbing" or some-such. I haven't been so successful with this - I think I'm too terrified to add 1+1 while I'm holding on for dear life.


2. Or are you asking how do you choose a turn in point?

This is harder. Philosophically, the goal is to make choices that get you around the track the fastest - but how does anyone deconstruct their entire lap down to this single turn-in point?

Things I've heard told:

* Pick an exit-point, then move your turn-in point until you hit your exit point (at maximum speed, of course).
* Know your maximum speed and lean angle (with magic?), then move your turn-in point back until you almost fall off the track on exit.
* Pretend the track is half-width to identify a good line, then pick a turn-in point on the outside of the track that puts you in your 'good line'.
* Try every point.

Things I've done:

* Followed someone else and took their turn-in point.
* Missed my turn-in point.


-E

All good points here. I think you are right on the money for choosing good reference points on the track that are specific and easy to see and help give you a good solid location on the track.

As for picking them, as you say there are several methods. You can work backwards, you can start with a basic turn in point and then adjust as necessary, you can follow someone else, intentionally miss turn points, ride different areas of the track to identify RP's...whatever works for you is really the best way.

One thing that really really helps is to DRAW THE TRACK. Keith made me do this when I was racing as many of the tracks I went to I had never ridden on. After the first session I drew the track and wrote down whatever I could remember about the track and all the RP's I had, then I added and added and adjusted as each session went along. Whenever there was a red flag or it was the end of the session I took some time to ride over curbs and check out the very outside or very inside of the track so I knew what to expect if I ended up there. It really helps when you have to learn a track fast

Originally Posted by LEEnBMW

I've learned that RP's are about consistency. To improve your times you must know what you are doing and where you are doing it in each corner. If you just ride around "by the seat of your pants" it will be hard to be consistent. Once you establish RP's for a corner and become consistent, then you can change them as you improve or try new lines. The stop watch will tell you whether it's better or worse.

RP's in corners for braking, turn in, apex, throttle pick up, and exit are all important in case you want to change them. They are especially important on biind hills and corners. Also having RP's for shift points is useful on straights. Sooner upshifts out of corners means you are exiting faster. It may even move you to change a tooth on your gearing.

Anything stationary that is visually easy to pick up are the best, but anything works. I've used tar spots, seams, patches, curbing, cones, walls and rails. I use the timing tower at Barber out of T2...LoL. Many new riders use the faster guy in front as a RP, then they are lost if they pass them. They don't know HIS RP's.

At new tracks when practice time is limited I work on the fast corners and corners that exit onto straights first and tight slow ones last. The faster ones have bigger impacts on your laptimes.

I guess all this is why I think most people think RP's are a must to get faster....

Excellent points and RP's are definitely a must if you want to get faster!

Have you ever drawn the track?

Misti

[usrodeo4]

Originally Posted by FlamingLips

Unless there are big "X"'s on the track marking your line, how does one go about picking out the reference points? For example, on turn-in, do you pick out a track feature that is before the turn-in or at. I struggle with finding the initial turn-in reference point.

I have always been of the Kenny Roberts "Look there, go there" school of cornering...try it sometime...just look where you want to go (the exit point of the corner) and just let your natural coordination take over....of course that assumes you have braked correctly and are in a good position entering the corner.

[misti]

Originally Posted by usrodeo4

I have always been of the Kenny Roberts "Look there, go there" school of cornering...try it sometime...just look where you want to go (the exit point of the corner) and just let your natural coordination take over....of course that assumes you have braked correctly and are in a good position entering the corner.

You look where you go is the very basis for the idea and concept of having reference points. As you stated, look there and you will go there. In a very basic sense everyone rides this way and they naturally and unconsciously pick out reference points, otherwise you wouldn't be able to ride a road at all. You use the edges of the road, the lines on the pavement, the signs, the slope of the road, cracks, edges, paint etc to guide you around.

On a more advanced level, having really solid reference points (especially for track riding and/or racing) will help improve your overall speed, confidence and especially consistency. You go where you look so it makes sense that you want to have something really clear to look at so that you will be certain that you will go THERE.

As you exit a corner you look way up track to the next brake marker and soon you are rolling on the gas with confidence and the bike is charging towards that specific place. As you approach a turn you look to the outside edge, right where the rumple strip starts where there is a yellow painted dot on the track or a tuff of grass or whatever, and you begin your turn in there which will set up your bike perfectly for a nice arc through the corner. Once you know you have hit your turn in point you look to the inside of the turn, to the dark skid mark right in the middle of the red/white painted edge and soon your bike is heading right there and you know you are exactly on the line you want. The more specific you can be with your RP's and your timing of when you look at them, the more certain you can be that you won't end up off course or off line.

This is why it is important to push yourself past the basics of looking in the general direction of where you want to go and start getting specific.

Drawing the track and marking down your RP's is a good way of doing this.

How many RP's should you have for a given corner? Can you have too few? Too many?

Misti

[usrodeo4]

Originally Posted by misti

You look where you go is the very basis for the idea and concept of having reference points. As you stated, look there and you will go there. In a very basic sense everyone rides this way and they naturally and unconsciously pick out reference points, otherwise you wouldn't be able to ride a road at all. You use the edges of the road, the lines on the pavement, the signs, the slope of the road, cracks, edges, paint etc to guide you around.

On a more advanced level, having really solid reference points (especially for track riding and/or racing) will help improve your overall speed, confidence and especially consistency. You go where you look so it makes sense that you want to have something really clear to look at so that you will be certain that you will go THERE.

As you exit a corner you look way up track to the next brake marker and soon you are rolling on the gas with confidence and the bike is charging towards that specific place. As you approach a turn you look to the outside edge, right where the rumple strip starts where there is a yellow painted dot on the track or a tuff of grass or whatever, and you begin your turn in there which will set up your bike perfectly for a nice arc through the corner. Once you know you have hit your turn in point you look to the inside of the turn, to the dark skid mark right in the middle of the red/white painted edge and soon your bike is heading right there and you know you are exactly on the line you want. The more specific you can be with your RP's and your timing of when you look at them, the more certain you can be that you won't end up off course or off line.

This is why it is important to push yourself past the basics of looking in the general direction of where you want to go and start getting specific.

Drawing the track and marking down your RP's is a good way of doing this.

How many RP's should you have for a given corner? Can you have too few? Too many?

Misti

Agreed...but for me it seems if I have braked correctly and am at the entry point I want for where I am placing the apex, from there things just happen naturally, I just look there and go there...I consider myself fairly quick (Former AMA Expert license holder)...I'm sure at some level my mind is processing reference points but I just don't dwell on them...or even really think about them...of course a new track will take some time to get to that level. And yes I agree it is always wise to chart out your cornering strategy and bike placement all around the track beforehand...and revisit as necessary...we may be saying the same thing just different internal perspectives.

[misti]

Originally Posted by usrodeo4

Agreed...but for me it seems if I have braked correctly and am at the entry point I want for where I am placing the apex, from there things just happen naturally, I just look there and go there...I consider myself fairly quick (Former AMA Expert license holder)...I'm sure at some level my mind is processing reference points but I just don't dwell on them...or even really think about them...of course a new track will take some time to get to that level. And yes I agree it is always wise to chart out your cornering strategy and bike placement all around the track beforehand...and revisit as necessary...we may be saying the same thing just different internal perspectives.

I think we are generally saying the same thing here, you look where you want to go and you naturally end up there. Of course you are processing reference points when you ride, otherwise how would you get around the track

A lot of times it feels very natural and like you are unconsciously going from place to place which is good. Sometimes though in order to get to the next level of your riding you need to consciously choose new RP's or push yourself to find some more specific things in order to pull you along the track even faster. This never means that you "dwell" on or ride as if you are in a large "connect the dots" game, it means that you know the specific spots on the track so well and can seemlessly move your eyes from one to the next in a way that gives you as much info about the track as possible and ensures you get exactly where you need to be.

This is most important on new or unfamiliar tracks and is extremely helpful in learning new tracks fast.

When I raced AMA there were several tracks, Daytona being one of them that I had NEVER ridden on before. I arrived at the track on the Thursday and had until Saturday to learn it quick enough to be able to qualify for the AMA! Choosing RP's and drawing the track and then pushing myself each time out to find more and more RP's was the ONLY way I was able to do this! I qualified at Daytona, Fontana, Elkhart Lake and Miller (full course) after riding on the track for only 2 or 3 days.

You say that it is "always wise to chart out your cornering strategy and bike placement all around the track beforehand...and revisit as necessary." That's pretty much what finding and adjusting RP's is all about

Misti

[chipset]

Misti is right. The concept of using reference points is to identify a location where you need to be. Based upon that reference point, you can then make adjustments.

For example, "I hit the reference point and realized I can carry more speed through the corner". Based upon this information, what can you do? Can you use the same reference point but use it differently? For example, instead of braking at a specific point, maybe break a couple inches later? Or Turn in a couple inches later.

For the non-experts like me, the margin of error is much larger (in terms of area). But at the AMA level or even club level, the faster you go, the less margin for error you have. By having your markers down (reference points), it aids in consistency, adjustments, and confidence.

By knowing where you are at on the track and knowing you've made it through that corner successfully before, would using a reference point improve your ability to negotiate that corner?

As for the question regarding how many reference points. At a minimum, three per corner (turn in, apex and exit). However, having multiple reference points can be beneficial, especially for racing (racing line, passing, deep entry, protecting lines, etc).

I don't know if there's a maximum number of reference points. I think it is up to the rider to know how many they can keep track of for that and every corner they negotiate on the track.

[RC51Player]

Misti is always right. LOL.

Sent from my HTC Rezound

[Reciprocal]

Originally Posted by misti

You look where you go is the very basis for the idea and concept of having reference points. As you stated, look there and you will go there.
Misti

Sorry Chipset but you're not an ama expert. If Kenny Roberts said "Look there go there," it cannot be argued against.

Misti, what is your process/technique/method to prevent reference points from becoming visual target fixations? If you fixate on a point that is becoming nearer as you approach it, you cannot keep your eyes up and looking ahead. You should be able to aim your bike toward a reference point from afar, but as you get closer to it you have to divert your eyes away before you are actually there. If so how is that different from just knowing when your bike is over the reference point?

[misti]

Originally Posted by chipset

Misti is right. The concept of using reference points is to identify a location where you need to be. Based upon that reference point, you can then make adjustments.

For example, "I hit the reference point and realized I can carry more speed through the corner". Based upon this information, what can you do? Can you use the same reference point but use it differently? For example, instead of braking at a specific point, maybe break a couple inches later? Or Turn in a couple inches later.

For the non-experts like me, the margin of error is much larger (in terms of area). But at the AMA level or even club level, the faster you go, the less margin for error you have. By having your markers down (reference points), it aids in consistency, adjustments, and confidence.

By knowing where you are at on the track and knowing you've made it through that corner successfully before, would using a reference point improve your ability to negotiate that corner?

As for the question regarding how many reference points. At a minimum, three per corner (turn in, apex and exit). However, having multiple reference points can be beneficial, especially for racing (racing line, passing, deep entry, protecting lines, etc).

I don't know if there's a maximum number of reference points. I think it is up to the rider to know how many they can keep track of for that and every corner they negotiate on the track.

Awesome! Couldn't have said it better myself Yes, three RP's minimum per turn and max would be up to the rider. Having too many could be a distraction though.

Originally Posted by RC51Player

Misti is always right. LOL.



Sent from my HTC Rezound

Originally Posted by Reciprocal

Sorry Chipset but you're not an ama expert. If Kenny Roberts said "Look there go there," it cannot be argued against.

Misti, what is your process/technique/method to prevent reference points from becoming visual target fixations? If you fixate on a point that is becoming nearer as you approach it, you cannot keep your eyes up and looking ahead. You should be able to aim your bike toward a reference point from afar, but as you get closer to it you have to divert your eyes away before you are actually there. If so how is that different from just knowing when your bike is over the reference point?

Excellent question. For some, RP's can become visual target fixations and you can easily end up staring at them too long. When you first start stringing your RP's together it can feel a bit like 'connect the dots'. You look at one point, then the next, then the next and it can feel a bit unnatural and choppy. As you get better you are able to more smoothly move your eyes from point to point and see the information in more of a flow.

The key is to look at your RP until you ABSOLUTELY KNOW that the bike is going to end up there, and then move your eyes up to the next point. Sometimes you are in a way target fixating on your reference point as a means of getting the bike to "get to the damn apex!" BUT you have to remember to then look up to the next spot. Soon it becomes so smooth and so natural that you are almost automatically looking at the track as if it was moving itself, "look at the cone, brake, look to the patch of grass at the apex, throttle on, look to the big tree, look way down the track to the large banner, look to the apex, turn" it's sooooo cool when it flows like that and you hit every point you aimed for!

Another thing to remember is that working on reference points is a constant process because if you make improvements in one area then you may have to make adjustments in another. For example, if you get a better drive out of the last turn onto the straightaway, then your approach to turn one will be a little faster so you might have to adjust your braking RP a little, OR you have to work on the timing of WHEN you look to your next RP.

It sounds complicated at first but makes such a tremendous difference in your overall riding, in your consistency, in your accuracy, in your speed and it helps you really pin point areas that might need improvement.

I hope that answered your excellent question!

[Reciprocal]

Thank you Misti, very articulate as always. It appears I've reached a point where my times have stopped improving, or maybe because it was the first track day of the season, whatever not to make excuses here, but the fact of it is I was 3 seconds off my times from the end of last season. All the skills I was trying to put together, blipping the throttle on downshifts, trail braking in deeper, using reference points, thinking my way around the track. I decided to try just going back to doing what comes natural, just told myself clear the mind, just go faster. My confidence went up, started pushing more, everything seemed to be going by quicker except one thing, the clock. My lap times stayed the same as before. It's just one day, I'm a little bummed about it, but in the end the feeling of being slower from thinking my way through the reference points, blipping the throttle on downshifts deeper in instead of slipping from farther out, trail braking deeper into the turns, while giving the sensation of going slower though the turns, in the end didn't seem to affect my lap times in a negative way any more so than just the general disappointment of not matching my lap times from last year. I did feel rusty and at times was sloppy on my lines. The trail braking at times tended to draw me down to the apex, requiring a mid turn adjustment. I can't say that I like the sensation of the loading on the front caused by turning and braking simultaneously.

A couple of general observations about my riding the s1krr, I'm losing a lot more ground to the slower, tighter turns 6, 8, 9a, and way more competitive in the faster turns 1, 3, 7. For example, turn 3 exits onto the longest straight, about 2000 feet, and I get a good drive out for one of the higher speeds there, a much as 158 mph. At that speed, how precise should hitting the braking marker be for turn 4 which is arriving at 232 feet per second? Turn 4 looks like a keyhole at that speed. And here's what I'm trying to manage, sitting up into the wind, knee out in preparation for bending the bike into the turn, steep braking while trying not to slip forward and weight the bars yet not able to grip the tank because the knee is out, blipping the throttle for two quick downshifts, diving the front end while trailing the brakes turning into 4 and not run off the inside or go wide. Thats a hefty workload. You can dissect into each little sequence of steps, but in the end racing is about being able to process large amounts of information quickly, and I am getting the 1202 alarm Houston.