How do you know what needs fixing?

[misti]

When you are riding at a track day or race weekend how do you know what areas of your riding need improvement? If you have to drop 2 seconds for example in order to qualify for a race (or just for bragging rights) how do you go about figuring out how you are going to do it?

Misti

[Slim]

i usually ask people to be honest. when i notice someones following me for a lap, ill go ask them after the sessions over. i know my main issue is confidence and being smooth. im off the brakes and onto the throttle too slow, but thats because im not confident of whatll happen if i crack the throttle. for me faster times come with being smooth, and relaxed.

[RyanITV]

Originally Posted by misti

When you are riding at a track day or race weekend how do you know what areas of your riding need improvement? If you have to drop 2 seconds for example in order to qualify for a race (or just for bragging rights) how do you go about figuring out how you are going to do it?

Misti

Offer a drink to the people in front of you.

I think at a certain level it comes down to brakes and throttle. My breakthrough at that level was from friends that were faster than I was at that point - they saw my weak spots, passed me there, and I'd battle to catch up. After the session, I'd ask how they managed to pass, they'd explain and I'd use that to improve on that corner or section.

At any level, as long as you connect with the people ahead of you, they have input to give you.

Ryan

[RyanITV]

Originally Posted by misti

Misti

BTW, are you coming out to play at NJMP in May? I sprung for a birthday present for my dad to have him do Level 1 and am tagging along to do Level 4 for the 8th time. Last time I was there with you on Lightning wasn't quite fair - the ZX6R against the 1098R. With my S1000RR vs the instructor bike, it's a little closer.

Ryan

[chipset]

Side note: I'd like to ride with Misti sometime, too. But, I really liked having Cobie as my instructor. He was great.

For me, there's a few ways to learn what you aren't doing well. First, there's the confidence issue. You know when you aren't confident. So, it tells you you need to work on something.

Then there's video tape. Tape never lies. When riding, you are processing so much information. If you aren't used to the speed, the track, etc, you are trying to compress a lot of information in your head at real-time. This includes:

Gear Selection
Throttle position
Braking
-- While these should be natural, knowing the best place for each takes time to learn where each is done on a specific track.

Then there's track specific information, like:
Location/Position on the track
Turn in, Apex and Exit points
Braking markers

Using tape, it is easy to identify the areas you can improve. For example, my first track day, I felt like I was flying around the track. I received a DVD of my performance and it was completely enlightening. I realized I had far more track than I thought. I could accelerate far earlier and brake much later.

Even without instruction, tape can offer lots of information to the interested observer. You can slow everything down, see where you are doing well and what you need to work on.

But, I am not sure this is the answer you were looking to elicit.

[RyanITV]

Originally Posted by chipset

Then there's video tape. Tape never lies. When riding, you are processing so much information.

Another tool that helped me identify problem areas was a GPS-based lap timer (I used an Athon GPS-R). I'd stick it on a faster rider's bike, then overlay the data on the laptop to see what the differences were. That helped lower times considerably as it allowed you to see what lines were different (if any) as well as throttle/brake input.

Even if no one faster is available, you can experiment with different lines, gears or brake marker and see what effect it has overall. In one instance, I found that dropping a gear going into a turn lowered the entry speed but gave me considerably more drive out, reducing that section's time.

Ryan

[misti]

Originally Posted by Slim

i usually ask people to be honest. when i notice someones following me for a lap, ill go ask them after the sessions over. i know my main issue is confidence and being smooth. im off the brakes and onto the throttle too slow, but thats because im not confident of whatll happen if i crack the throttle. for me faster times come with being smooth, and relaxed.

This can be a good starting point in that a faster rider can tell you that you are braking too early here and taking a crappy line there but it still leaves you with some work to do for yourself I've had people tell me "you are slowing down too much for that corner, you need to go faster." and I was like "DUH, I know that but HOW do I go faster " Once you have that as a starting point you can look at the reasons WHY you might be slowing down too much or getting onto the throttle too slowly...

Originally Posted by RyanITV

Offer a drink to the people in front of you.

I think at a certain level it comes down to brakes and throttle. My breakthrough at that level was from friends that were faster than I was at that point - they saw my weak spots, passed me there, and I'd battle to catch up. After the session, I'd ask how they managed to pass, they'd explain and I'd use that to improve on that corner or section.

At any level, as long as you connect with the people ahead of you, they have input to give you.

Ryan

Again I think this is a good starting point but will need a lot more work to find out the real issues. Once you know how they managed to pass you, you still need to figure out what YOU can do to help you carry more speed for that corner...

Originally Posted by RyanITV

BTW, are you coming out to play at NJMP in May? I sprung for a birthday present for my dad to have him do Level 1 and am tagging along to do Level 4 for the 8th time. Last time I was there with you on Lightning wasn't quite fair - the ZX6R against the 1098R. With my S1000RR vs the instructor bike, it's a little closer.

Ryan

Hahaha, I wish. That was a little unfair, I remember that day It was also the first time I had ever been to that track so it was funny for me to be telling you to "follow me" when I was still learning where to go. I won't make it to NJMP in May as I've got my hands full with an almost 2 year old....one day I'll get to do more coaching

Originally Posted by chipset

Side note: I'd like to ride with Misti sometime, too. But, I really liked having Cobie as my instructor. He was great.

For me, there's a few ways to learn what you aren't doing well. First, there's the confidence issue. You know when you aren't confident. So, it tells you you need to work on something.

Then there's video tape. Tape never lies. When riding, you are processing so much information. If you aren't used to the speed, the track, etc, you are trying to compress a lot of information in your head at real-time. This includes:

Gear Selection
Throttle position
Braking
-- While these should be natural, knowing the best place for each takes time to learn where each is done on a specific track.

Then there's track specific information, like:
Location/Position on the track
Turn in, Apex and Exit points
Braking markers

Using tape, it is easy to identify the areas you can improve. For example, my first track day, I felt like I was flying around the track. I received a DVD of my performance and it was completely enlightening. I realized I had far more track than I thought. I could accelerate far earlier and brake much later.

Even without instruction, tape can offer lots of information to the interested observer. You can slow everything down, see where you are doing well and what you need to work on.

But, I am not sure this is the answer you were looking to elicit.

There are no specific answers that I'm looking to elicit just YOUR answer. This is a really good point as video tape and even photos can do wonders to help you improve your riding. Sometimes you think you are way leaned over or that you are close to the edge of the track and like you said you see the photo or video and you are surprised! This gives you very specific things and areas that you can work on for sure.

Once you know that you suck in a certain area or that you need to brake later or get on the gas earlier how do you go about doing it? Is it just a matter of telling yourself to brake later or roll on the gas sooner or is there more to it than that?

Thanks for the great conversation!!!

Misti

[RyanITV]

Originally Posted by misti

Hahaha, I wish. That was a little unfair, I remember that day It was also the first time I had ever been to that track so it was funny for me to be telling you to "follow me" when I was still learning where to go. I won't make it to NJMP in May as I've got my hands full with an almost 2 year old....one day I'll get to do more coaching

In my own defense, it was also my first time on that bike. After riding an 848 for the season, the 1098R was quite a handful...

Enjoy the time with the kid - there's nothing else like it.

Ryan

[WISKEY TANGO FOXTROT OVER]

Originally Posted by misti

If you have to drop 2 seconds for example in order to qualify for a race (or just for bragging rights) how do you go about figuring out how you are going to do it?

Misti

I always say , If you want to drop two seconds a lap ,you'r gunna have to cut the front break lever off (if you'r already a competent rider)
If your a first timer on a track or just getting started in the track thing , I would say look further into the corner , you can always find a couple tenths by looking further into the corner , and on a 10 turn track.....aw sh!t ,you can figure it out .

[chipset]

I think education is the key. Educating yourself will give you the things to look for.

I remember back to my session last year. I felt I did well on every lesson, except one. In fact I still struggle with it.

But, without knowing what to look for, you are left with "what's wrong?" For example, you could look at a video tape of me riding and point out 10 things on a given lap that I need to improve upon.

And any one of us could look at a lap and maybe pick out something that a top racer did wrong in a lap.

But another top racer could probably pick out ten of those items.

Without education and/or experience, you are only guessing at what needs improvement, or worse, think everything is perfect.

A perfect example is me improving. I know something I need to work on, but I don't know how to do it.

We all agree, to go faster, you must be able to turn the bike faster. But how do you turn faster with the SRs? For example, to turn faster on a track, you need to be going faster. Obviously, that may add stress.

I don't know the answer.