Braking

[chipset]

There are many ways to brake going into a turn. I am thinking of changing the way I brake and wanted to get thoughts about how each of you break and get the ideas of pros and cons.

My typical braking on the track looks something like this. While still straight up and down, I apply brake slowly then get progressively harder.

I some case, I do trail brake but I find steering is much heavier and I only tend to do it if I feel I have overcooked the corner.

I have heard of hard first, then soft, soft all the way, etc.

Thoughts?

[AMRRA12]

if I’m not on the gas I’m on the brakes, I trail brake allot

[akjitsu]

The critical notion to understand is that you’re not braking to stop. You’re braking for the sole purpose of setting your entry speed to the corner. Seems obvious enough but you really need to take a moment or two to let that sink in. It is from that understanding everything else about braking flows.

Since you do not want to arrive at your turn point with a big ol’ handful of brakes (makes setting a precise turn speed all but impossible), you will need to get the meanest part of the deceleration over with early. This means coming on the brakes hard at your chosen braking point. Not a yank but a strong and precise squeeze that goes from zero to full braking force in about 1.0 – 1.25 seconds. Once you’ve scrubbed off the greater part of the speed you need to get rid of, you can start easing off the brake to arrive at your turn point at your chosen entry speed. Push the inside bar and voila’! You’re in the turn just like you wanted to be. Then you can set about moving your braking and turning points to lower your lap times. Not complicated really. But it does require a butt-load of practice and experimentation to get it down.

Trail braking, as a practice, is nothing more than moving your braking point forward until you’re still backing off the brake and decelerating as you’re turning. It does wonders for your lap times but DO NOT attempt it until you are very comfortable with the above skill set.

Good luck.

AK

[AMRRA12]

Originally Posted by akjitsu

The critical notion to understand is that you’re not braking to stop. You’re braking for the sole purpose of setting your entry speed to the corner. Seems obvious enough but you really need to take a moment or two to let that sink in. It is from that understanding everything else about braking flows.

Since you do not want to arrive at your turn point with a big ol’ handful of brakes (makes setting a precise turn speed all but impossible), you will need to get the meanest part of the deceleration over with early. This means coming on the brakes hard at your chosen braking point. Not a yank but a strong and precise squeeze that goes from zero to full braking force in about 1.0 – 1.25 seconds. Once you’ve scrubbed off the greater part of the speed you need to get rid of, you can start easing off the brake to arrive at your turn point at your chosen entry speed. Push the inside bar and voila’! You’re in the turn just like you wanted to be. Then you can set about moving your braking and turning points to lower your lap times. Not complicated really. But it does require a butt-load of practice and experimentation to get it down.

Trail braking, as a practice, is nothing more than moving your braking point forward until you’re still backing off the brake and decelerating as you’re turning. It does wonders for your lap times but DO NOT attempt it until you are very comfortable with the above skill set.

Good luck.

AK

Very well put.


to expand on that a bit, you can use brake and throttle at the same time to balance a chasse, most people only think of the brake as a slowing or a stopping tool when it is so much more than that. Let’s say you running wide after apex on the throttle, you could: get off the throttle and let the front of the bike settle so you can turn... or you could stay on the gas and work a little brake to weight the front. now you have the lifting force of the rear (on the gas) and the diving force of the front (on the brake) radically changing geometry to work in your favor

[chopt]

The critical notion to understand is that you’re not braking to stop. You’re braking for the sole purpose of setting your entry speed to the corner. Seems obvious enough but you really need to take a moment or two to let that sink in. It is from that understanding everything else about braking flows.

Since you do not want to arrive at your turn point with a big ol’ handful of brakes (makes setting a precise turn speed all but impossible), you will need to get the meanest part of the deceleration over with early. This means coming on the brakes hard at your chosen braking point. Not a yank but a strong and precise squeeze that goes from zero to full braking force in about 1.0 – 1.25 seconds. Once you’ve scrubbed off the greater part of the speed you need to get rid of, you can start easing off the brake to arrive at your turn point at your chosen entry speed. Push the inside bar and voila’! You’re in the turn just like you wanted to be. Then you can set about moving your braking and turning points to lower your lap times. Not complicated really. But it does require a butt-load of practice and experimentation to get it down.

Trail braking, as a practice, is nothing more than moving your braking point forward until you’re still backing off the brake and decelerating as you’re turning. It does wonders for your lap times but DO NOT attempt it until you are very comfortable with the above skill set.

Good luck.

Some good stuff here.

[misti]

Originally Posted by akjitsu

The critical notion to understand is that you’re not braking to stop. You’re braking for the sole purpose of setting your entry speed to the corner. Seems obvious enough but you really need to take a moment or two to let that sink in. It is from that understanding everything else about braking flows.

Since you do not want to arrive at your turn point with a big ol’ handful of brakes (makes setting a precise turn speed all but impossible), you will need to get the meanest part of the deceleration over with early. This means coming on the brakes hard at your chosen braking point. Not a yank but a strong and precise squeeze that goes from zero to full braking force in about 1.0 – 1.25 seconds. Once you’ve scrubbed off the greater part of the speed you need to get rid of, you can start easing off the brake to arrive at your turn point at your chosen entry speed. Push the inside bar and voila’! You’re in the turn just like you wanted to be. Then you can set about moving your braking and turning points to lower your lap times. Not complicated really. But it does require a butt-load of practice and experimentation to get it down.

Trail braking, as a practice, is nothing more than moving your braking point forward until you’re still backing off the brake and decelerating as you’re turning. It does wonders for your lap times but DO NOT attempt it until you are very comfortable with the above skill set.

Good luck.

AK

Very well explained and pretty much how I tend to use my brakes when racing or track riding. I think one thing that is really important here as you mention is the idea of having good solid reference points. Having a specific location on track where you start your braking is really important, as is having a good idea of where to turn the bike.

Have any of you experimented with having an "off brakes" reference point - a defined place on track where you release the brakes?

Misti

[markjenn]

All good advice so far.

I'll add that I brake differently on the track than on the street. On the track, I'm obviously willing to push harder, what with the controlled circumstances, repeatability of each lap, and a meat wagon at the ready. In this situation, I'll work on my visual braking points, and brake hard fairly immediately to get the bike as quickly as possible to the proper entry speed, although you do want to make the application of brakes progressive enough to allow the transfer of weight to the front wheel. But I don't feather the brakes - if you're applying the brakes slowly, you're burning time and space that can be used to either have better safety margins or go faster.

On the street, I'm much more cautious and avoid sudden inputs in general for the obvious reasons - traffic, variable surfaces, etc. I try and be much smoother and allow more margins.

At the track, I'll trail brake sometimes and it is the fastest way around the track. But I don't do it a whole lot simply because I'm not that great at it and I don't want to lose the front end. I'm Okay with the fact I'm not going as fast as the guy next to me who is trail braking. On the street, I almost never trail brake and in fact, use it as an indicator that I'm probably pushing too hard. On the street, a slow-in/fast-out strategy to the corners is really a much better way of dealing with the uncertainties of road riding and I try and do all my braking while I'm straight up/down, even if this means I'm going a little slower than I could while in the corner. I like the feeling of rolling on the throttle throughout the corner and the nice stable feel it gives the chassis.

I've had quite a few street situations where I've hit a patch of contaminated pavement in a corner, momentarily lost the front end, had it slide a foot or so to where the pavement was Okay again, and regained traction with a huge shudder in the bike. If I was trail braking in these situations, I think I would have probaby gone down.

Heavy braking is a great track tool, but it is also what gets most riders in big trouble on the steet. It's old stuff, but I think Ienatsch's treatise on "The Pace" is still the key to entertaining, yet fairly safe, sportbike riding on the street.

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/fl...sch/index.html

- Mark

[misti]

Originally Posted by AMRRA#12

Very well put.


to expand on that a bit, you can use brake and throttle at the same time to balance a chasse, most people only think of the brake as a slowing or a stopping tool when it is so much more than that. Let’s say you running wide after apex on the throttle, you could: get off the throttle and let the front of the bike settle so you can turn... or you could stay on the gas and work a little brake to weight the front. now you have the lifting force of the rear (on the gas) and the diving force of the front (on the brake) radically changing geometry to work in your favor

If you are running wide just past the apex of the corner and you roll off the gas the bike will have the tendency to stand up and run you wider. If you try to turn again (to compensate for running wide) and are already at max or near max lean angle you risk running out of traction and lowsiding (one of the most common reasons for mid corner crashes).

Adding brakes mid corner can be very risky for many riders (locking up the rear is easy to do and crashing because too much front brake was applied is a very common mistake).

Instead of trying to use the throttle and brake at the same time, can you guys thing of another way that you could tighten up your line without adding any more lean angle??

What else could you do that would have the same effect that AMRRA #12 mentioned above of adding more weight to the front and changing the geometry of the bike so it kind of "hooks" in and tightens up but without using the brakes?



Misti

[Brainfry]

Originally Posted by misti

If you are running wide just past the apex of the corner and you roll off the gas the bike will have the tendency to stand up and run you wider. If you try to turn again (to compensate for running wide) and are already at max or near max lean angle you risk running out of traction and lowsiding (one of the most common reasons for mid corner crashes).

Adding brakes mid corner can be very risky for many riders (locking up the rear is easy to do and crashing because too much front brake was applied is a very common mistake).

Instead of trying to use the throttle and brake at the same time, can you guys thing of another way that you could tighten up your line without adding any more lean angle??

What else could you do that would have the same effect that AMRRA #12 mentioned above of adding more weight to the front and changing the geometry of the bike so it kind of "hooks" in and tightens up but without using the brakes?



Misti

Get off the bike more...

[akjitsu]

Originally Posted by misti

Very well explained and pretty much how I tend to use my brakes when racing or track riding. I think one thing that is really important here as you mention is the idea of having good solid reference points. Having a specific location on track where you start your braking is really important, as is having a good idea of where to turn the bike.

Have any of you experimented with having an "off brakes" reference point - a defined place on track where you release the brakes?

Misti

It aughta be be well explained. It's how you taught me at Willow a couple of years ago.