Crashing - BMW S1000RR Forums: BMW Sportbike Forum
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post #1 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 02:35 PM Thread Starter
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Crashing

One of Keith Code's articles is titled "crashing" and in it he says, "Riding errors which lead to crashing follow distinct patterns. Once detected they can be used to make huge leaps forward in skill and confidence."

What do you he means by "distinct patterns"? What kinds of errors do you think can indicate whether or not someone is on the path to crashing?"

The article can be seen here:
Crashing - Articles by Keith - Cornering Forum

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post #2 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 03:13 PM
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Laws of physics will dictate what causes a crash. How each rider violates these laws will be different. Having crashed twice on the track (one with CSS, another on my own). I got to learn about the limits the hard way sometimes it's rider error, other times it's environment or equipment (rain, new pavement, cold tires, etc...). But at the end it's a rider's responsibility to be environmentally aware.

Errors are easy to spot if someone is about to crash. But a distinction needs to be made whether it's a one-off error or a repeated error. For example, on the track I find myself experimenting with shifting/braking techniques. If someone sees me they would say I'm going to crash. But I'm intentionally making mistakes to see what works best for me.

Red flags would be any of the below in a repeated fashion:

wrong line into and out of a turn.
bad vision, not seeing what's coming. Bad reference point, etc...
choppy on brakes/throttle/clutch.
body position (crossed up, etc...).
Overly aggressive riding/passing. Ambition outweighs skill
Physical readiness. Tired, lack of focus, etc...

A crash will be inevitable when any of the above is combined.
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post #3 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misti View Post
One of Keith Code's articles is titled "crashing" and in it he says, "Riding errors which lead to crashing follow distinct patterns. Once detected they can be used to make huge leaps forward in skill and confidence."

What do you he means by "distinct patterns"? What kinds of errors do you think can indicate whether or not someone is on the path to crashing?"

The article can be seen here:
Crashing - Articles by Keith - Cornering Forum
Dylan Code posts here...maybe he'll expound...
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post #4 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 05:45 PM
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Misti is an accomplished, and articulate, track coach. She is inviting discussion while employing the Socratic method.

Dive in and try to answer her question. She will expertly guide the discussion.
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post #5 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misti View Post
One of Keith Code's articles is titled "crashing" and in it he says, "Riding errors which lead to crashing follow distinct patterns. Once detected they can be used to make huge leaps forward in skill and confidence."

What do you he means by "distinct patterns"? What kinds of errors do you think can indicate whether or not someone is on the path to crashing?"

The article can be seen here:
Crashing - Articles by Keith - Cornering Forum
I think that the prompt is asking about identifying distinct patterns that leads to your own crash.

I have only crashed on track, and it was because I had no fear to push the limits (riding kayo 125gp). I brake later and later until I blow the turn, then back off a little. I get on the gas sooner and sooner until it gets squirrely, then back off a little.

Looking back at the crashes, the chunks I took (chunk = each time I brake a little further) are too big which pushes me past limit of adhesion. Too big a chunk and you can't recover in time before hard parts touch.

Taking my time, only pushing the limit little by little, small chunks, takes me to the limit more gradually so that once I cross it the slip is small and manageable and...dare I say...ADDICTING!!!!!!!
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post #6 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-09-2017, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smash adams View Post
I think that the prompt is asking about identifying distinct patterns that leads to your own crash.

I have only crashed on track, and it was because I had no fear to push the limits (riding kayo 125gp). I brake later and later until I blow the turn, then back off a little. I get on the gas sooner and sooner until it gets squirrely, then back off a little.

Looking back at the crashes, the chunks I took (chunk = each time I brake a little further) are too big which pushes me past limit of adhesion. Too big a chunk and you can't recover in time before hard parts touch.

Taking my time, only pushing the limit little by little, small chunks, takes me to the limit more gradually so that once I cross it the slip is small and manageable and...dare I say...ADDICTING!!!!!!!
I like that term CHUNKS. I never used the term with racing, but I can relate. I was a big chunk guy when I raced. After one particularly large chunk in turn one, (Portland) I also learned my lesson.

Lots of room for error on that turn, seemed like I slid, rolled, tumbled for minutes.
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post #7 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 11:41 AM
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Maybe Code is referring to things like fixating on a target that you feel like your going to hit (and then hitting it), not looking where you want to go, or going rigid on the handle bars instead of loosening up and letting the bike self stabilize.
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post #8 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smash adams View Post
I think that the prompt is asking about identifying distinct patterns that leads to your own crash.

I have only crashed on track, and it was because I had no fear to push the limits (riding kayo 125gp). I brake later and later until I blow the turn, then back off a little. I get on the gas sooner and sooner until it gets squirrely, then back off a little.

Looking back at the crashes, the chunks I took (chunk = each time I brake a little further) are too big which pushes me past limit of adhesion. Too big a chunk and you can't recover in time before hard parts touch.

Taking my time, only pushing the limit little by little, small chunks, takes me to the limit more gradually so that once I cross it the slip is small and manageable and...dare I say...ADDICTING!!!!!!!

2013 HP4
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post #9 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 01:13 PM
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After reading the article (good, by the way), I'll take a shot at answering the OP's question - remembering I've only been coaching about 3 years (and I'm too old to go race), so take it with a grain of salt.

To me, crashing normally falls into two categories:

1. Technical: By this, I mean both the bike and the rider. There are certain laws of physics that the bike is accountable to, i.e. setup, tires, heat, temp, track surface, etc etc. Riders have to be able to spot that and take corrective action. For example wayy too much lean angle on street tires on an off camber turn. Rider - may include body position, heavy handed brake or gas, etc etc. A good coach can spot these and hopefully make the correction before it's costly to the rider.

2. Mental: This one is the really difficult one to teach (and for many, harder to learn). A rider that either has the "I (or my bike) can't do it" or the opposite "go for it I'm bulletproof" mentality; the former will get them to not relax and tighten up, usually resulting in going wide and running off the track - while the latter usually results in a low or high side (or worse) because the rider is using up 101% of their existing talent. Both are equally difficult to train a rider out of.

I personally fall into the overly cautious category. I doubt myself and my bike way too much. However, that's kept me to a total of 3 crashes since 2009 at the track. Two of them were Technical (cold tire on wet day) and one was in my first year when I tightened up and ran off the track. And I can still feel myself tense up on those spots at each track. Each rider has their own pace they are comfortable at progressing..some have to be encouraged (like me) and some have to be held back for their own safety. I am a firm believer in baby steps and a slow progression to build rider confidence - as they learn more about their bike (technical) and themselves (mental) they make progress. I am grateful to those patient coaches who helped me - and those that still do because you never stop learning. My coach and mentor tells me "you may have to give up some of your strong survival instinct - smartly - and take some risk to progress" and I agree with him.

I am also a USPA (United States Parachute Association) Instructor with 25 years and 2500 jumps worth of experience. I've seen the same thing play out in skydiving. Usually the cautious but persistent ones tend to stay in the sport the longest. The "go for it" types usually get really good, really quick, then the "your ambition outweighed your talent" moment happens, and they are hurt (or worse) and out of the sport. I had to see a few people pay the ultimate price before I gained a healthy dose of respect for the sport. I'm probably overcautious in the track because 'crashing' in skydiving has an entirely different consequence.

Would enjoy feedback from the OP and experienced coaches.
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post #10 of 47 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 01:39 PM
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Excellent, thoughtful post, Skydivr
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