what is this called?

[noamkrief]

I'm keeping safe. I have a new zx6r ninja just for track days to start out with - so power doesn't get me in trouble.

One think I keep in mind is that the throttle is not an on/off switch.

[Tony216]

It sounds like you're just asking too much out of that front tire. I think every new sportbike rider should give a read through Twist of the Wrist Vol. 2. It's been years since I read it, but I remember it mostly dealing with traction on the front tire and back tire. I think it could really help you along.

Anyway, here's the issue with riding fast on the street. You solve most problems on a bike with gas. On the street, the road's not always wide enough to use your most valuable correction tool.

As far as your steering concept goes, assuming that there's no rear tire input; counter-steering drops the bike towards a correct lean angle, regular steering helps the bike actually turn.

Countersteering 101 v1.1 - YouTube

[1000RR]

Originally Posted by noamkrief

I'm keeping safe. I have a new zx6r ninja just for track days to start out with - so power doesn't get me in trouble.

One think I keep in mind is that the throttle is not an on/off switch.

A 6R will get you in trouble with the best of them!!! They'll spin up and can highside almost as easy as a liter bike. Don't kid yourself. The advantage to a 600 is they are lighter... so they'll teach you to be better (later) on the brakes, quicker to tip in, faster through the turns, and will help you get on the throttle sooner.

But make no mistake, they can put you on your ass just as quick as a liter... I race a ZX6R - Great bike btw!!!

[Skygun]

Thanks Nomad "I think Skygun was probably taking exception to me rather than intending to offend."

Let see Noamkrief I suggested you go and try it on the same road again, You did. I offered some information why I did not think it was front end wash, it wasn't, it was slow speed front end dive.
I am not questioning your abilities as a new rider, you are correct we have all been there and will all get better some day.

So to be so offended by words to even think of wishing something that another person children should be injured is wrong on so many mature levels, nor is it even funny.

Thanks

[noamkrief]

Ok - sorry if I took something the wrong way here. It really looked like some of you guys saw my question of the bike wiggling on me and telling me I should quit riding and pick up drag racing. As a personal note - being a race car driver - I don't like drag racing. It requires very little talent and I hate just about everything about it.

I've been thinking alot about my situation. It actually happened exactly the same way in the exact same corner 3 times that day.
Reading a bit more online - I think the correct term for what happened to me is "front end tuck".
Seen at this photo I found on a google search:
http://www.bcsportbikes.com/forum/at...1&d=1120837135

I had the exact same thing happen to me.
Did the front tire give up and lose traction? I assume yes.
Why do the handle bars turn inwords in that situation?
Is there ever a condition in which the front give out and the bars turn outwards?
What are the warning signs? Or is it like "snap oversteer" in a car - it comes out of nowhere under hard cornering.


It's been over a week since this happened to me. And like I said - it happened 3 times in the same corner in the same afternoon I was doing runs (at palomar mnt, San Diego).
At the time it happened, I shrugged it off as "simple bike wiggle" Maybe I wasn't smooth enough.
But now it's really sinking in that my bike was split seconds away from lowsiding on all 3 counts.
It's very scary now that i'm thinking about it. I could have hurt myself, my bike, and maybe other people around. and scarier is that I don't think I was leaning that far or going very fast.

I'm just glad that my natural reaction is to give some throttle, from tracking and racing cars very often - throttle is usually our solution to every problem...

[Nomad]

Yes. Sounded like it to me. As drag racing is to road racing, so are cars to bikes in my opinion. Bikes take much more talent as the machine is less of the overall performance equation compared to the operator.

You can break traction regardless of speed and two riders, same equipment, can see totally different performance dependent on subtle differences in technique.

Bikes are very much about weight transfer and a decreasing radius, uphill turn while neutral throttle or decelerating is going to ask more and more of the front as you round the corner. You have to account for this on a bike because unlike a car, you can't just wait for the under steer to warn you. The warning is often felt too late.

Glad you saved it and hope to see you on the track.

[noamkrief]

I couldn't agree more.
Bikes require more talent. I can already tell from the first time I got on a bike.
The fact is, that you are much more ONE with the machine on a bike than in a car. Also when it comes to car racing in a spec class, a very talented driver in an inferior car would never stand a chance against better prepared cars.
I think with motorcycles, since reaching the absolute limit of a bike is not very common - an amazing rider can out qualify another rider just about on any bike.

It's just not that difficult to find the limit in a car. And there is far less risk involved. There is no lowside or highside in a car. When the back end comes around, you stay in the throttle, make some steering adjustments, the car naturally slows down due to the skid, and on you go. Same with understeer.

With a bike - your whole body has to work right. You may lowside because you have reached the limit of traction DUE to your body position and smoothness. Another rider would have reached that limit at a much greater speed. So it's much more dynamic on a bike - and much more risky so I can see how the pucker factor and "checker or wrecker" plays a bigger part in motorcycle racing or achieving great lap times.

I'll be in ACS this coming weekend both days. Still on the waiting list for chuckwalla mid december. Hoping someone cancels and I'm in...

I'll be on a 2011 Kawi ZX6R. Sorry guys - I love my S1KRR too much to track it and risk laying it down. When I know what i'm doing better - you bet your butts i'll be tracking it non stop! That's what it's made for...

[1000RR]

Originally Posted by noamkrief

I had the exact same thing happen to me.
Did the front tire give up and lose traction? I assume yes.

Without being there, hard to say for sure... but my experience is that if you're turning the steering into the turn while leaned over, yes the front is beginning to tuck.

Originally Posted by noamkrief

Why do the handle bars turn inwords in that situation?

Simple balance technique. Think about riding a bicycle... if the bike wants to fall to the left, what do you do? You turn the bike to the left and it picks itself back up. Same thing here...

Originally Posted by noamkrief

Is there ever a condition in which the front give out and the bars turn outwards?

I'm sure anything can happen, but this would be VERY weird - if the front was tucking and you turned the bars out. Remember, wherever the bars turn to is because you turned them that way. When left alone, a bike will try and go straight and does a damn good job at it.

Originally Posted by noamkrief

What are the warning signs? Or is it like "snap oversteer" in a car - it comes out of nowhere under hard cornering.

It really depends on the turn. On a quick turn where you're likely trail braking in, flicking, and getting back on the gas quick... the tuck can come outta no where (maybe a hairpin). If it's a sweeper, you can actually feel the front sliding. A LOT will depend on your bike setup and the tires you're on... whether or not you are getting feedback (and understand it) from the tires & suspension.

Originally Posted by noamkrief

It's been over a week since this happened to me. And like I said - it happened 3 times in the same corner in the same afternoon I was doing runs (at palomar mnt, San Diego).
At the time it happened, I shrugged it off as "simple bike wiggle" Maybe I wasn't smooth enough.
But now it's really sinking in that my bike was split seconds away from lowsiding on all 3 counts.
It's very scary now that i'm thinking about it. I could have hurt myself, my bike, and maybe other people around. and scarier is that I don't think I was leaning that far or going very fast.

I'm just glad that my natural reaction is to give some throttle, from tracking and racing cars very often - throttle is usually our solution to every problem...

When in doubt, throttle out!!