Questioning corner braking advice

kuroshio · 01-22-2012, 02:54 PM

I'm on a forum for CBRs and there is a discussion going on about braking in corners. The discussion centers around some advice somebody found on the web concerning braking in corners.

"Emergency Brake (while cornering): pull the clutch, and brake with your front brake.
Be careful, and keep pushing your bike into the corner (for most people, the outer knee and outer buttock works best in this situation), because your bike will try to straighten up (and thus steer out of the corner).
When you practice, you will be able to brake rather hard in corners!"

I'm having some serious problems with this advice. The website where the person found this is geared towards newer riders. This almost screams "Advanced" to me for several reasons. The biggest reason is because to me it is far easier to tell a new rider to stand the bike up and then brake, which is what the MSF teaches. Practicing this on. The street would be extremely dangerous, imo. And if the intent was for this to be practiced at the track, it'd be irresponsible to even mention it unless you were a track instructor and the person was sitting in front of you.

Am I wrong in this?

kuroshio · 01-22-2012, 03:12 PM

Also it just sounds wrong. It seems like the advice is given to keep or tighten the turn. Just seems better to use the rear brake. Or like I said, stand her up.

It's not like someone can come to a full stop leaned over in a corner

chipset · 01-22-2012, 03:37 PM

As you apply the front brake, weight is going to shift forward.. especially if it is a panic stop. What happens in that situation? Where does the front tire end up?

If you apply the rear brake, it will allow you to scrub some speed without shifting weight to the front. What happens if the rear brake is applied too hard?

In one case, you low side. In the other, high side.

Depending on the situation, I have been know to hold the throttle and adjust accordingly. In some cases, the best action is no action. Think gravel. I have been in situations where I come across gravel in the road. My eyes focus on it and first instinct is loss of traction. Chopping the throttle moves weight to the front and the front will wash out. If you hold steady throttle, you can make it through it. And if not, there wasn't much you could do about it anyway.

If I need to stop in a corner because of a large stopped object, such as a car, tree, etc., I plan my stop quickly. What is available? Where do I want to end up. If you gently lay off the throttle and steadily apply brakes, you can control your stop. But you will get maximum stopping power straight up. So, I figure out where I can stand the bike up and apply brakes.. hard.

**AMRRA12** · 01-22-2012, 04:08 PM

Pulling in the clutch is NOT a good idea it will stand the bike up and run you wide
there is nothing wrong with breaking in a turn as a matter of fact for a racer it's a HUGE tool and once thats mastered is just about the best tool there is.

kuroshio · 01-22-2012, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMRRA12

Pulling in the clutch is NOT a good idea it will stand the bike up and run you wide
there is nothing wrong with breaking in a turn as a matter of fact for a racer it's a HUGE tool and once thats mastered is just about the best tool there.

But that was kinda what worried me. The website presented itself as a "beginner" website. Definitely not racing. And an impressionable newish rider asked about it and how to practice it. I haven't done a track day yet but consider myself as solid as you can be on the street. This struck me as insanely dangerous for new riders and irresponsible for track teaching

edchung · 01-22-2012, 05:13 PM

It's about the "rate" of braking -

"Jabbing" on the brakes generates a different result (chipset was talking about weight transfer in a panic stop, for example) compared to "gentle" braking. AMRRA12 is "gentle" braking in turns because he knows what he's doing - and it really is awesome.

I think it's a great skill to practice and gives me another direction out of an unexpected bad situation.

I would not post on a forum to use the clutch/front brake for "Emergency brake while cornering".

**AMRRA12** · 01-22-2012, 06:13 PM

for the sake of safety I will say "trail braking" (braking into a turn) on the street is not a good idea.... however at times it must be done, as long as your practice this skill you will be fine applying it in an emergency situation

1st you need to understand what you're doing and when TB (Trail Braking ) will cause you to crash.

NOTE:.....(for this we must assume the tires are up to temp and you are not jamming on the brakes or braking over bumps) yeah I know a lot of if's huh? thats why it's a skill

we have all seen people do stoppies and there is a reason that the rear tire will lift before the front tire locks up ..... That reason is suspension, as long as the rider pops the rear up before his forks bottom out the front tire will not lock up and slide. that being said as long as you do not bottom out the forks in a TB situation you will not tuck the front...(see above note)

There are guys at my track in my class that are faster in the straights,faster on the gas and that have better lines, but there is nun that can out brake me or that brakes deeper and later then I do, there is an old saying in racing I have no idea who said it first but it's "Races are won on the brakes not on the Gas" thats how important this skill is to learn but I highly recommend you learn it at your local track.

Damon · 01-22-2012, 06:57 PM

I believe I said this before, they actually teach what the op is talking about in the sport bike course given by the MSF. You just have to complete the basic rider course and advanced rider course before you take the sport bike course. One exception there is no clutch applied.

RRrider · 01-29-2012, 11:54 PM

Lee Parks teaches that trail braking is more important on the street than on the track! the idea being if you are trail braking, and something untoward happens around the corner, then you are already on the brakes and can gently apply more brake, slowing you down, and altering your line, without upsetting the suspension, and potentially blowing through the limits of your contact patch. I always try to trail brake now in the twisties while imagining idiot cager with 2 wheels in my lane coming at me around that blind turn....

this of course is not beginner technique.

RC51Player · 01-30-2012, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RRrider

Lee Parks teaches that trail braking is more important on the street than on the track! the idea being if you are trail braking, and something untoward happens around the corner, then you are already on the brakes and can gently apply more brake, slowing you down, and altering your line, without upsetting the suspension, and potentially blowing through the limits of your contact patch. I always try to trail brake now in the twisties while imagining idiot cager with 2 wheels in my lane coming at me around that blind turn....

this of course is not beginner technique.

This is very true and one if the things I teach on the MSF sport bike course mentioned above. However, we only touch on it a little because most of the guys taking that course through the military don't have the experience to apply the concept correctly. It's a shame because as you mention it really does serve a purpose more on the street then the track where you are more likely to be pushing 100% traction use on any given corner.

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