Lean angle confidence

[bananaman]

What do you feel when adhesion limits are about to be breached? I'm talking about the very start not actually binning it or is it something you find after you've binned it. Been looking at some of my pics trying to analyse...... My day at CSS was very good and upped my confidence no end but i thought i might have felt something, like maybe the tyre giving and grabbing. seems ive still a long way to go The hero blobs in the pic are showing a lot of air, will these actually touch before wipe out?
Can anybody transfer a feeling into words?

[chriss1000rr]

Originally Posted by bananaman

What do you feel when adhesion limits are about to be breached? I'm talking about the very start not actually binning it or is it something you find after you've binned it. Been looking at some of my pics trying to analyse...... My day at CSS was very good and upped my confidence no end but i thought i might have felt something, like maybe the tyre giving and grabbing. seems ive still a long way to go The hero blobs in the pic are showing a lot of air, will these actually touch before wipe out?
Can anybody transfer a feeling into words?

Well I have never binned a bike. Some say then I'm not riding it hard enough well I get off the front tyre both sides. so I'm all the way over ..if u push it you will feel a small slide from the rear tyre or both never hit the brakes ok ease of the gas a wee bit they will hook up. Don't ride with jerky movement. and keep smooth just relax and try to be i n tune with what your bikes telling u. tyre pressure is crucial as is suspension. set up I recomend race tec 3 or 2s they give so much feed back and grip alsothe sliding is progressive. so easy to make u feel you are still in control if you are riding a s1000rr u shoild be happy that u have in my opinion the best bike in the world for inspireing confidence it realy is as good as they say

[1000RR]

I can give you a few things I've noticed last race season... two having to do with the front, one on the rear.

The rear is usually easy... even if it slips, you're usually OK as long as you don't slam the throttle shut. That said, if you get too hamfisted coming out of a turn, it can let go pretty quick and you can find yourself on your Noggin pretty quick too. So as Chris said, throttle control is your friend. But like I said the rear will just scoot a little on you and you need to pay attention to it (I didn't one time and damn near high sided (there's a video on here of it during a race). If you start to feel the rear slip, note it to yourself and try and figure out the cause... my situation was a hot day and greasy track... but I just didn't pay enough attention.

The one I think you're really interested in is the front. I can put words to one situation and then a feeling to the other. I came into turn one pretty hot and trail braked pretty deep and the front started chattering ever so slightly. It was basically just starting to slip and you could feel the chatter in the bars. The key to feeling it though is being loose enough on the bars to begin with. If you're too tight, the feedback may not register as much. So one was a chatter almost, like it was slipping gripping slipping gripping slipping gripping. It didn't let go, I just maintained and noted that so the next lap, I tried to get more braking done earlier, and got off the bike a bit more.

The other one was just a feeling... I was coming around a high speed sweeper and something (can't explain it) just told me, that's it, don't push any more... that was during a practice round. So I pitted and we checked pressures and it turned out I was about 2lbs high in the front. It wasn't chattering though, but something didn't feel good. ALWAYS listen to what ever your mind is telling you... chances are it's knows something you don't

As for the feelers on your pegs... In general your bike has a LOT more lean angle to provide. But that is predicated on a few things... your body position, your tires (type and pressures), track conditions, suspension, amount of trail braking, throttle control, etc. You can afford to get your head a lot further over and drop your inside shoulder and elbow down. This will help traction in general... but there is a lot more to it.

This'll give you some insight... On my first track day, I scraped my fairing (same fairing as you have on yours). It scraped at the very bottom edge where it begins to turn up. That was NOT because I was fast nor good... it was because I had REALLY crappy body position, suspension needed some help and I just had a lot to learn. I was lucky that day

[bananaman]

Thanks guys, i consider myself to be smooth on the throttle which maybe is why ive not had a moment (yet) cant get my head around deep trail braking so most is done before (which is why i get passed so much on way in)comming out is smooth but of course exit speed is slower (in comparison) because of no feel or movement. Guess i need to grow some !!

[pimpedc6]

That was a very good writeup of the sliding and chattering you feel. Sometimes I feel like the back end is floating in the corner. Something just feels off. That said I used to drag my boots all the time then i got my boots tucked in good and dragged the stock pegs and my helmet was clipping the grass about a foot off the ground. Even in that turn, The front and back were planted with no slide. I guess, I could have leaned more. That said if you are smooth you should have a ton of lean. Stay off the brakes and keep a constant speed at max lean.

[weldoid]

Good question Bananaman! This is a good thread.

For me, front feel and body position are very closely related: if you hang on too tight, you can't feel the front (If your body position is correct, you won't be hanging on too tight).
It seems that front feel on a bike is similar to front feel in a car. When you push the front of a car to its limits, you feel that little bit of broken traction and you just know that if you push any harder they'll slide. To me, its the same on a bike. Its hard to understand on a bike at first because most of us are nowhere near the limit of the front when we first start out.
Some good advice I got for lean angle is: when finished leaning (steering), hit the gas! When you're steering (leaning), theres enough force on the front to keep it biting. When steering is completed, the gas must be on; thats where the traction is! When your foot (or footpeg) touch, it's about time to stop steering
This is actually all out of "Twist of the Wrist II". Well, except for the car comparison

[AMRRA12]

(from the pic's) You have a long way to go before your out riding your tires (NOTE: this is not to say you wont out ride you ability first) on a flat turn (non camber) if my puck is on the ground and the inside of my knee is pushing against the fairing it's just about done.

but to your question" pushing the front usually accuser at turn-in when your tire is weighted and your trailing in, its using close to its traction limits this will feel like a small "slide grip slide" "chatter" if this accrues roll slightly on throttle

spinning the rear is usually at exit on the gas and is no big deal if you feel it do nothing but stay relaxed and hold throttle


and remember some times sh!t just lets go with no warring! but thats racing

[Darkangel]

Originally Posted by AMRRA12

(from the pic's) You have a long way to go before your out riding your tires (NOTE: this is not to say you wont out ride you ability first) on a flat turn (non camber) if my puck is on the ground and the inside of my knee is pushing against the fairing it's just about done.

but to your question" pushing the front usually accuser at turn-in when your tire is weighted and your trailing in, its using close to its traction limits this will feel like a small "slide grip slide" "chatter" if this accrues roll slightly on throttle

spinning the rear is usually at exit on the gas and is no big deal if you feel it do nothing but stay relaxed and hold throttle


and remember some times sh!t just lets go with no warring! but thats racing

+1

You seem pretty tall and you have a lot more lean angle available. I'm on the short side so when my knee is dragging I know I'm pretty much at max lean.

The slide and grab could be a few culprits.... mainly track and tire conditions. I agree with AMRRA though, when it's the rear it's not much to worry about and TC can help mitigate. I also agree that when your riding at pretty much max potential, sometimes things (tires) just let go. This can be helped by chosing a brand/style one level up from your riding abilities. All in all, practice will help you learn the causes most of your upsets (something I need more of myself).

[100%]

If you have the DTC on, you will spin the rear, but the bike probably isn't going to get away from you.

I agree with the posters above about front chatter. That's where you absolutely need to get farther off of the bike and get it stood up a bit. With Pirelli SC slicks, there's a second scary front-end scenario--the front end drift...yes, technically a form of chatter, but the front just begins to slide out very slowly. You can relax, take appraisal of the situation, get farther off of the bike, or you can wash out the front. The good news is that the Pirelli's hook up very smooth, so you're good if ya do it right...

I also agree with the other posters...you are definitely not at max lean angle. However, that's a good thing. The longer you have the bike upright, the later you can be on the brakes and the earlier you can get on the gas!

[bananaman]

Hey, some great thoughts here! Count myself in low/mid fast group on track days. Currently trying sportsmarts (which i find better than conti and 016's). Was going to try slicks this season but judging from your opinions theres no point yet.
Gassing at lean.... Surely this unloads the front and lessons traction? Always in awe at meetings watching the exits where they appear well over but the fronts in the air