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Old 05-25-2010, 06:19 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Some perspective upon 'engine failure'

I know I shouldn't bite...

There will always be some engine failures. That's what manufacturing tolerances are about- acceptable losses. And I do offer sympathy for those owners who have experienced this. However until the S1 proves to be the unreliable beast that some people are describing it as, I'll consider it to be 'within standard parameters'. Of course there will be more failures. As long as they keep building them there has to be a percentage of failure. That's normal and expected. And of course I expect that we will hear about each and every one of them right here

The following comments are not based upon my personal bias of owning an S1. For the doubters/pessimists; do some scientific research to substantiate your claims of widespread 'engine failure' (aka the sky is falling).

The facts as I am aware of:

1. BMW tested this engine for almost 3 years prior to mass production. They have been building 4 cylinder engines for decades. The S1 engine is really quite unexceptional apart from the finger followers- and they have been thoroughly tested in F1 competition. BMW provided many pre-production bikes to testers to thrash and iron out the bugs. I therefore consider the S1 to be first-gen but actually already a few years in the making. It's a proven thing.

“We had to produce more than 100 S1000RRs for homologation in December 2008 and into January 2009. But we knew with this bike that quality control was going to be a very high target for us.
“So then we produced 300 examples of S1000RR and asked BMW employees to ride them. They had to sign a contract with us not to
tell anyone about the bikes and to just ride and ride them.
“These riders have covered more than one million kilometres (625,000
miles) between February this year and the recent start of production
of customer bikes. None of the 300 bikes will be going to the customer
or elsewhere, and once these preproduction machines have been
finished with at the press launch they will be destroyed and recycled.
“We have done the utmost to ensure quality of the S1000RR.”

2. The S1 has exemplified itself in 24 hr endurance racing:

"The S 1000 RR ran perfectly right throughout the day and night, and by the time the 2009 Bol d’Or finished at just after three o’clock on the Sunday afternoon, the BMW riders had completed 766 laps of the circuit at an average speed of 140.67 km/h. Despite the intense heat, which had caused problems for many other machines (25 per cent of the teams failed to finish the race), the only problem that Gerhard and his teammates suffered was brake fade."

“In truth, we didn’t know what to expect as it often rains at the Bol d’Or but this year was unusually warm, so many of the teams were having problems with engine cooling and brake pad wear."

3. BMW has an international reputation to maintain. They don't do things by half. If there are problems, we will hear about them. Recalls will follow. The S1 is currently way ahead of Harley, Toyota, Aprilia to name but a few. The engine design is not in dispute. The authenticated low percentage of engine failures are in all likelihood based upon faulty assembly and/or installation of faulty components. That's par for the course. Big deal. The doubters need to tell me something beyond this.

4. The data collected at this website is not following any statistical methdology. It's a collection of grievances, and then some value-adding along the lines of "someone I work with heard from a friend of theirs that their cousin's S1000RR..."

Ok, I'm done. I'm not into conspiracy theories nor spreading unsubstantiated gossip. The world is round, man did land on the moon, Jim Morrison is dead, and I'm off to clock up many more kms on the S1. See you in the twisty stuff.
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Old 05-25-2010, 07:06 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Agree'd. Life is risk. Just ride


Chad
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Old 05-25-2010, 07:45 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Good summary!! Now can we put this "engine failure" to a rest now...
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Old 05-25-2010, 07:49 AM   #4 (permalink)
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While that is entirely true, those who have been with BMW for awhile know that they can be slow to move on certain things, although I haven't really seen the company as a whole completely ignore a clear problem.

But it does beg the question: just how many BMW **cars** a year spin a bearing and seize the crankshaft within the first thousand miles? Furthermore, when bearings fail, they usually rattle quite loudly; they don't seize the crank up tight. This seems to say to me that this is a particular type of bearing failure, not a run of the mill wrongly sized shells.

Cranks are cranks, very simple technology whether it's a Hyundai or a hyperexotic. So is it the RPMs? Or maybe more pointedly, people revving their engines way up...while the engine internals and oil is COLD?

While a handful of failures is just that, a very unlucky few, no word from BMW on what exactly was/is the problem. I usually run my engines in hard and fast, but with this bike, I'm practically nursing her along!
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Old 05-25-2010, 08:00 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insignis View Post
I know I shouldn't bite...

There will always be some engine failures. That's what manufacturing tolerances are about- acceptable losses. And I do offer sympathy for those owners who have experienced this. However until the S1 proves to be the unreliable beast that some people are describing it as, I'll consider it to be 'within standard parameters'. Of course there will be more failures. As long as they keep building them there has to be a percentage of failure. That's normal and expected. And of course I expect that we will hear about each and every one of them right here

The following comments are not based upon my personal bias of owning an S1. For the doubters/pessimists; do some scientific research to substantiate your claims of widespread 'engine failure' (aka the sky is falling).

The facts as I am aware of:

1. BMW tested this engine for almost 3 years prior to mass production. They have been building 4 cylinder engines for decades. The S1 engine is really quite unexceptional apart from the finger followers- and they have been thoroughly tested in F1 competition. BMW provided many pre-production bikes to testers to thrash and iron out the bugs. I therefore consider the S1 to be first-gen but actually already a few years in the making. It's a proven thing.

“We had to produce more than 100 S1000RRs for homologation in December 2008 and into January 2009. But we knew with this bike that quality control was going to be a very high target for us.
“So then we produced 300 examples of S1000RR and asked BMW employees to ride them. They had to sign a contract with us not to
tell anyone about the bikes and to just ride and ride them.
“These riders have covered more than one million kilometres (625,000
miles) between February this year and the recent start of production
of customer bikes. None of the 300 bikes will be going to the customer
or elsewhere, and once these preproduction machines have been
finished with at the press launch they will be destroyed and recycled.
“We have done the utmost to ensure quality of the S1000RR.”

2. The S1 has exemplified itself in 24 hr endurance racing:

"The S 1000 RR ran perfectly right throughout the day and night, and by the time the 2009 Bol d’Or finished at just after three o’clock on the Sunday afternoon, the BMW riders had completed 766 laps of the circuit at an average speed of 140.67 km/h. Despite the intense heat, which had caused problems for many other machines (25 per cent of the teams failed to finish the race), the only problem that Gerhard and his teammates suffered was brake fade."

“In truth, we didn’t know what to expect as it often rains at the Bol d’Or but this year was unusually warm, so many of the teams were having problems with engine cooling and brake pad wear."

3. BMW has an international reputation to maintain. They don't do things by half. If there are problems, we will hear about them. Recalls will follow. The S1 is currently way ahead of Harley, Toyota, Aprilia to name but a few. The engine design is not in dispute. The authenticated low percentage of engine failures are in all likelihood based upon faulty assembly and/or installation of faulty components. That's par for the course. Big deal. The doubters need to tell me something beyond this.

4. The data collected at this website is not following any statistical methdology. It's a collection of grievances, and then some value-adding along the lines of "someone I work with heard from a friend of theirs that their cousin's S1000RR..."

Ok, I'm done. I'm not into conspiracy theories nor spreading unsubstantiated gossip. The world is round, man did land on the moon, Jim Morrison is dead, and I'm off to clock up many more kms on the S1. See you in the twisty stuff.
Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice !!
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Old 05-25-2010, 01:35 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I can't remember a single post where people were saying the engine sucks, or there are widespread reliability issues or anything of that nature. I still believe the rev limiter after the fact is suspicious. You can't tell me a bunch of motorcycle designers are that naive not to realize riders don't always follow break in properly. All of the posts are asking questions regarding the frequency of the failures, frustrations from those people that have had problems, etc. My posts simply asked questions and everyone on this board gets so damn defensive like I just called their first born ugly or something. I don't care what the numbers say....something is occurring to some individuals which seems kind of unexpected with regard to typical engine problems. Heaven forbid some of us don't have money to throw away on blind faith or care enough to look into a product before we fall for the salesmans pitch. I'm probably more skeptical than a lot of you cause my dealer sucks ass and I can't even test ride the thing so it is easy to stay more objectionable since I haven't had a chance to be blown away by its performance. Although if I did get to ride one I am sure I would end up buying it... Let me clear this up I'm not making fun of any of you (except phatgixer cause he is an ass) or BMW. I think it's a great bike. I think there is some room for improvement from what I read on here with a few things (not just the engine). Hopefully BMW will address these in future runs. The bike isn't going anywhere as they are obviously selling well, so waiting for next years run is not always a bad thing. Plus I still would like to see symmetrical headlights or an aftermarket fairing that will allow for some. Technology will come and go but ugly is forever....lol. I'd still take it with the colonel klank headlights, but symmetrical ones would be better.
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Old 05-25-2010, 01:46 PM   #7 (permalink)
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the mythbusters should put this myth to rest!

I would watch it!
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Old 05-25-2010, 01:55 PM   #8 (permalink)
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You gotta love the internet.

A vocal few banging the same old drum but banging it loudly and repetitively...
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Old 05-25-2010, 02:02 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Talking WTF?

Im starting to question if you even OWN a bike. You sure do spend alot of time on this forum bashing the bike. Arent there some Ducati issues you could be flaming about? Like how butt ugly the 999 is or the god awful sound of a dry clutch being abused by a squid? Seriously though, for someone who doesnt own this bike you sure do hang out here alot. Like someone said in a post a while back "you are fishing for a response". Well, I responded, Now STFU and go ride your bike...If you actually own one. Im going to hang out on the Scion Forums. I dont own one, I dont actually know anyone that owns one, I have never been inside one, but I HATE them... sound familiar? Actually, I think I will go for a ride on my POS assymetrical, engine destroying, who the f*ck designed this, BMW. Have a nice day and keep the fruit of the looms on the lazyboy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gnance View Post
I can't remember a single post where people were saying the engine sucks, or there are widespread reliability issues or anything of that nature. I still believe the rev limiter after the fact is suspicious. You can't tell me a bunch of motorcycle designers are that naive not to realize riders don't always follow break in properly. All of the posts are asking questions regarding the frequency of the failures, frustrations from those people that have had problems, etc. My posts simply asked questions and everyone on this board gets so damn defensive like I just called their first born ugly or something. I don't care what the numbers say....something is occurring to some individuals which seems kind of unexpected with regard to typical engine problems. Heaven forbid some of us don't have money to throw away on blind faith or care enough to look into a product before we fall for the salesmans pitch. I'm probably more skeptical than a lot of you cause my dealer sucks ass and I can't even test ride the thing so it is easy to stay more objectionable since I haven't had a chance to be blown away by its performance. Although if I did get to ride one I am sure I would end up buying it... Let me clear this up I'm not making fun of any of you (except phatgixer cause he is an ass) or BMW. I think it's a great bike. I think there is some room for improvement from what I read on here with a few things (not just the engine). Hopefully BMW will address these in future runs. The bike isn't going anywhere as they are obviously selling well, so waiting for next years run is not always a bad thing. Plus I still would like to see symmetrical headlights or an aftermarket fairing that will allow for some. Technology will come and go but ugly is forever....lol. I'd still take it with the colonel klank headlights, but symmetrical ones would be better.
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Old 05-25-2010, 02:20 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insignis View Post
I know I shouldn't bite...

“So then we produced 300 examples of S1000RR and asked BMW employees to ride them. They had to sign a contract with us not to tell anyone about the bikes and to just ride and ride them.
“These riders have covered more than one million kilometres (625,000 miles) between February this year and the recent start of production of customer bikes. None of the 300 bikes will be going to the customer or elsewhere, and once these preproduction machines have beenfinished with at the press launch they will be destroyed and recycled.

stuff.
I was, I still am one of this employees that start to ride the bike in May 2009. The first ride was 600 Kms in a race track just from 0 kms... I couldn't believe what I was ridding... what a bike... now I bought one for me... I couldnn't resist...

BMW Motorrad is watching close what problems are happening in this specific model, they know how important is this bike.

Regards,
masas
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