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Old 01-02-2013, 12:28 AM   #51 (permalink)
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I think we are in agreement there... (in blue)... if you can't increase lean angle you can't go faster... with few exceptions... maybe Mark Marquez or Casey Stoner... they are aliens! Anyway, back to topic... I'm actually saying that I CAN increase lean angle. What you're missing, and it may be due to not being exposed to the track with a motorcycle... You CAN increase lean angle!! That's part of the point. Different tires WILL allow for more lean angle. And NO, I won't be scraping rearsets... they (aftermarket) are adjustable and can be set such that you're not scraping hard parts. So if you agree that I can set my bike up such that I'll run out of tire before I begin scraping hard parts (which one can), you should also agree that I can now use more of the potential of the slick and hence corner faster (and lower) through the corner (and apex)... Yes?
If the physical dimensions of the bike were NOT the limiting factor, then a grippier tire will ABSOLUTELY be able to negotiate the same turn at a higher speed. But it MUST increase its lean angle.

But as far as I see it, the bike has physical dimensions we cannot overlook. At a certain point, if the pegs don't drag, your inside leg (tucked in) will hit the ground and you can't lean any further. If you can't lean further, you can't go faster even if the tires allow it. You are maxed out regardless of tire. That's my point

As a sidenote. My program is there to demonstrate the relationship between bike lean, turn radius and speed.
You can select the level of riding aggressiveness - effective lean angle that you want to execute and it will estimate your speed.

Another reason I created it is that many of us go on google maps to find new cool roads. But looking at google maps, it's very difficult to see how tight the turns are. You may see a road on google maps that you want to try out that looks like as many great corners, and when you actually get there, the turns are so wide, that you'd have to be doing 120mph to get any sort of "fun" lean angle.

So the app will approximate speed for the given lean angle and show you how "fun" the road would be.
Being a bigginer, I don't like high speed sweepers many of my friends take at 100mph and drag knee. I also don't like the super tight 20mph turns. I like the 40-50mph range corners for my comfort level of approx 40 degree effective lean.

PS - i have been riding for 4 months now. Already have 8 track days under my belt. Already have signed up for 26 track days in 2013 including steets of willows, chuckwalla, and purump. I will be at chuckwalla this weekend and at Auto Club Speedway next weekend. Love the track! Actually not a fan at pushing limits on street roads. I like to work on smoothness, throttle control and visual skills when I go canyon carving.

My passion for analyzing data comes from my car racing experience. I use very sophisticated data acquisition system. The first thing I do after a few sessions is look at my maxium later G's for any turn at the track. Lets say at infineon i'm doing around 1.2G's in every corner except for Turn 10. Then I know that on T10 i'm being a wuss and my car can handle 1.2G's for the given day and tire condition. This method has served me well as I run at the front of the pack in Spec E30 racing.

Last edited by noamkrief; 01-02-2013 at 12:32 AM.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:39 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Many things in this thread are debatable. One thing for certain though is you're one smart motherf**ker.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:39 AM   #53 (permalink)
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If the physical dimensions of the bike were NOT the limiting factor, then a grippier tire will ABSOLUTELY be able to negotiate the same turn at a higher speed. But it MUST increase its lean angle.

But as far as I see it, the bike has physical dimensions we cannot overlook. At a certain point, if the pegs don't drag, your inside leg (tucked in) will hit the ground and you can't lean any further. If you can't lean further, you can't go faster even if the tires allow it. You are maxed out regardless of tire. That's my point

PS - i have been riding for 4 months now. Been on 8 track days. Already have signed up for 26 track days in 2013 including steers of willows, chuckwalla, and purump. I will be at chuckwalla this weekend and at Auto Club Speedway next weekend. Love the track!

My passion for analyzing data comes from my car racing experience. I use very sophisticated data acquisition system. The first thing I do after a few sessions is look at my maxium later G's for any turn at the track. Lets say at infineon i'm doing around 1.2G's in every corner except for Turn 10. Then I know that on T10 i'm being a wuss and my car can handle 1.2G's for the given day and tire condition. This method has served me well as I run at the front of the pack in Spec E30 racing.
You will have to experience some of the real application of the laws of physics... that's just how it is. True for everyone. (at the track preferably)

The part in Red above, is NOT true... you have so much more to understand about lean angle and all the elements/variables centered around it... The part above, highlighted in blue, will help immensely, to understand the dynamics and variables that we're discussing here, especially tire traction and all the things that affect it (geometry, air pressure, clicker settings, rider ability, tire choice, etc.). If you're able to do the 20-something trackdays this year, I am VERY confident your perception will change a bit on much of this.

I really can't explain it further than I have already... it'd be easier to show you - one on one at the track. Exactly what tires, suspension, air pressure, etc. will do for you on the track and in the end WILL allow you to go faster around that same turn that you thought you were maxed out at. At the same time, if you have a properly set up bike, you will learn that scaping hard parts is the least of your concerns .

Take care and enjoy your 2013 season. With 20-some days at the track, you will be a VERY different rider this time next year. The track will help tremendously. Good luck out there, you're gonna have a blast!!
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:00 AM   #54 (permalink)
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The part in Red above, is NOT true...
I thought we already covered this... For a given lean angle,if you increase your speed, your radius will increase.

So if you can't lean any further, you can't go faster for that particular radius.

I have a good understanding of suspension tuning. I do my own string alignments and suspension adjustments on my racecar. Compression/rebound, lowspeed/highspeed. Tire pressures, rake, caster, tow, and camber.

All those adjustments are there to maximize how efficient the tires are conforming to the pavement and the front / rear balance during acceleration of out turns, and trail braking. If the balance is not correct, your front tire will slide well before the rear or the other way.

Regardless, all these tunings are there to maximize the grip of the tire. Still not changing the fact that for a given lean angle, and speed, will always result in the same turn radius.

So in my earlier example of you dragging your inside leg and CANNOT lean any further unless you chop your leg off. If your tire is gripping at that level of lean, and you change to an even better tire, you will not be able to go faster in a constant speed, constant radius turn for the simple fact that you CANNOT lean any further. If you want to go faster for the given radius, you will drift wide, or you MUST lean further - and in this example, you simply CANNOT.

Don't discard this fact just because your suspension guy keeps saying that you can go faster if you tune your suspension and the tire manufacturer says you can turn faster. I'm talking about steady state constant radius turn, and you are talking about trail braking and maximizing grip in order to be able to accelerate hard out of corners.

Thanks for the kind comments regarding my track days. I'm already tuning my own bike and had it professionally tuned multiple times already.

I think there is alot of confusion between the term "handling" and as it relates to speed around a corner.
A 1999 BMW M3 handles great! With good suspension that is set up correctly, it handles like a dream, even with street tires. But it may only be able to sustain 0.9 lateral G's.

On the other hand, I've driven cars that handled like crap that can sustain 1.5 lateral G's. Meaning - they can go faster around any specific corner.

A good handling car is one that aspires confidence, and predictable. Requires less effort to turn, and hold a turn. It is predictable in the way it trail brakes and the way it comes out of a turn under acceleration. When the tires slide, they do so predictably. This allows you to push the car harder because you have confidence that when it crosses the limits, it is still controllable. In other words - you are able to put it on its limits for more time because flirting with the limits always yields to crossing the limits once in a while. And if the car is predictable (handles well) the driver is more willing to flirt with the limits under braking, trail braking, mid-corner, and accelerating out.

I assume the same applies with bikes. I'm not at the point where I slide my tires yet under acceleration.

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Old 01-02-2013, 02:17 AM   #55 (permalink)
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1000RR you're going to love this!
I found another forum that specializes in physics of motorcycles.
The owner/moderator has credentials listed on this page:
Motorcycle Safety Site

Perhaps you can disagree with me because I have no formal education on this matter, but if you look at his credentials, I would trust what he has to say:

I found an almost identical topic as the concept I keep trying to prove to you with the theory of when you CANT LEAN ANY FURTHER because body parts are dragging on the ground, a stickier tire is not going to give you more speed for a particular corner. There is only 1 speed for a given radius and lean angle.
Anyone who says i'm missing variables with wheelbase, mass, tire traction is flat out wrong. I'm using real formulas from real physics that apply in the REAL world.

found on:
All Things (Safety Oriented) Motorcycle - Minimum speed at maximum lean

James:
"Now, here is the reality that you seem to be overlooking ... what limits how far you can lean a bike is some part of the bike other than the tires that touches the ground. Some bikes, like many Harley-Davidsons, can have a lean angle of 30 degrees before they start to drag something. Others, notably sport bikes, can lean more than 45 degrees without dragging anything.

So, when you said 'maximum lean angle', that means before the bike drags something on the ground. And, if you are riding your bike with that lean angle, you are ALREADY AT THE SPEED THAT YOU MUST BE GOING FOR THAT PARTICULAR CIRCLE AND LEAN ANGLE.

The bike will 'fall' (assuming you are going less than about 10 mph), if you reduce your speed from that point (because a part will drag), or you widen the turn without changing your speed.

That is, the speed of your turn is simply a function of the radius of that turn and your lean angle. More often than not, that's said as: Your lean angle is a function of your speed and the radius of the turn.

'Pilot skills' have nothing to do with it."


....


"If you are riding on a circle and your peg scrapes, then you are at that moment going at THE ONLY SPEED POSSIBLE for that radius and lean angle, assuming your body stays in-line with the bike.

There is no 'lean angle' control on your bike. You cannot set a lean angle and then decide to see how fast you can go with that angle. You cannot set a lean angle and then decide to see how much wider or narrower the radius can be. What you can do is set a path of travel (steering), and speed, and that causes the BIKE TO SET A LEAN ANGLE ACCORDINGLY."


Maybe James has somehow also failed to factor mass, tire traction in to his equations??

All my calculations are based on the fact that for a given radius and lean angle, there is only 1 resulting speed possible. There are NO other variables!

So for all the countless replies on my FREE website saying "you're an idiot. amateur programming with a simplistic point of view of motorcycle dynamics missing other variables such as tire pressure, rake, geometry, mass, and type of tire profile" eat your hearts out.

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Old 01-02-2013, 08:51 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Now all I need is a lean angle sensor with readout and NOT one that senses the lean angle of the bike....

This is a novelty at best.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:10 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by noamkrief View Post
I thought we already covered this... For a given lean angle,if you increase your speed, your radius will increase.

So if you can't lean any further, you can't go faster for that particular radius.
You've chosen to take my comment out of context... I specifically stated that I CAN go faster around the turn (w/out dragging hard parts due to my bike being set up properly) and WILL BE increasing lean angle... I thought I covered that already?!?


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Originally Posted by noamkrief View Post
1000RR you're going to love this!
I found another forum that specializes in physics of motorcycles.
The owner/moderator has credentials listed on this page:
Motorcycle Safety Site

Perhaps you can disagree with me because I have no formal education on this matter, but if you look at his credentials, I would trust what he has to say:

I found an almost identical topic as the concept I keep trying to prove to you with the theory of when you CANT LEAN ANY FURTHER because body parts are dragging on the ground, a stickier tire is not going to give you more speed for a particular corner. There is only 1 speed for a given radius and lean angle.
Anyone who says i'm missing variables with wheelbase, mass, tire traction is flat out wrong. I'm using real formulas from real physics that apply in the REAL world.
As it pertains to your argument here and quoting another website...he speaks (again) of lean angles and scraping hard parts. What I'm telling you is that you CAN set up a bike such that it WILL run out of tire (traction) prior to scraping hard parts. You're choosing to ague this fact and don't have you're own experience to back it up but rather assume (again) this to be the case. If you indeed do 20-some trackdays this year, you will find out some of this for yourself... till then, please don't go preaching about scraping hard parts and knee dragging, etc.

You speak of "real world"... but the fact of the matter is (and YOU said this yourself)... YOU'VE MADE ASSUMPTIONS!!! That IS the point here. For a given condition/environment, your assumptions are fine... but the fact still remains... change a condition, and this crap goes right out the window. Riddle me this... why do some knee puck manufacturers make two size knee pucks? They have a normal size (for dry conditions) and they have a size twice the thickness (typically used in wet conditions)? Report back once you read on the internet what the reasoning is... then let me know how that correlates to your assumptions?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by noamkrief View Post
So for all the countless replies on my FREE website saying "you're an idiot. amateur programming with a simplistic point of view of motorcycle dynamics missing other variables such as tire pressure, rake, geometry, mass, and type of tire profile" eat your hearts out.
Not everyone believes everything they read on the internet... and for those that do, this is exactly why I and some others here have pointed out some other variables one should consider when playing around w/this website. As I mentioned before, the program is pretty neat... don't take offense and get so defensive w/further introduction of facts to consider. You keep defending it, and likely due to the time invested in it - I get that. It's fine for the assumptions you've made... but it DOES NOT cover everything the Real World throws at you. You HAVE made assumptions... the G-force is the big one...

Final two riddles for you:

RIDDLE 1: Biker guy goes out on a hot July day and goes 80mph around a fixed radius turn w/his knee down. His lean angle is 47.834566 degrees (he likes precision). His bike is set up properly and he does not scrape hard parts. Same biker guy goes out in January right after a severe ice storm... He remembers this website that told him he could go 80mph in which he proved to himself he could just 6 months prior. So he goes out and attempts it again... same speed, puts the bike into the turn only to find he low sides the bike and slams into the guard rail. If all things are created equal and your program spits out real world answers, why did he low side?

And please don't come back with, the idiot should have known better. Yes, I'm making extreme examples here, ones that I hope surely wouldn't happen. But the fact still remains (which you've readily admitted)... YOU'VE MADE ASSUMPTIONS. Same w/the guy's website you've referenced... he made assumptions too.

RIDDLE 2: A Moto2 (600cc) bike can and will corner faster than your S1000RR... and that is provided with having the same rider on both. When I say corner faster, I specifically mean... the amount of time it takes to get from the tip in of the turn to the exit (where I'm back at full throttle) of the turn (which in essence is what folks are gleaning from your website/curve speed calculator - how fast can I take this turn). If you choose to say that is untrue, I'm not sure there's any help for you... if you agree, then ask yourself why? (HINT: it in part has to do with the coefficient of friction that was assumed when coming up with the G-force assumption for the program)
---------------------
And a quote from your website you quoted above (James Davis)... which btw, has some pretty darn good information on his site. Quote from Mr. Davis: "limits are interdependent, not independent". You've "fixed" your assumptions - he's telling you that things change and when you're trying to find your limit (max speed for a given turn), you need to understand the limitations affecting it... change one, and something else changes... change another, and boom, another something else changes.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:51 PM   #58 (permalink)
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You've chosen to take my comment out of context... I specifically stated that I CAN go faster around the turn (w/out dragging hard parts due to my bike being set up properly) and WILL BE increasing lean angle... I thought I covered that already?!?



As it pertains to your argument here and quoting another website...he speaks (again) of lean angles and scraping hard parts. What I'm telling you is that you CAN set up a bike such that it WILL run out of tire (traction) prior to scraping hard parts. You're choosing to ague this fact and don't have you're own experience to back it up but rather assume (again) this to be the case. If you indeed do 20-some trackdays this year, you will find out some of this for yourself... till then, please don't go preaching about scraping hard parts and knee dragging, etc.

You speak of "real world"... but the fact of the matter is (and YOU said this yourself)... YOU'VE MADE ASSUMPTIONS!!! That IS the point here. For a given condition/environment, your assumptions are fine... but the fact still remains... change a condition, and this crap goes right out the window. Riddle me this... why do some knee puck manufacturers make two size knee pucks? They have a normal size (for dry conditions) and they have a size twice the thickness (typically used in wet conditions)? Report back once you read on the internet what the reasoning is... then let me know how that correlates to your assumptions?!


Not everyone believes everything they read on the internet... and for those that do, this is exactly why I and some others here have pointed out some other variables one should consider when playing around w/this website. As I mentioned before, the program is pretty neat... don't take offense and get so defensive w/further introduction of facts to consider. You keep defending it, and likely due to the time invested in it - I get that. It's fine for the assumptions you've made... but it DOES NOT cover everything the Real World throws at you. You HAVE made assumptions... the G-force is the big one...

Final two riddles for you:

RIDDLE 1: Biker guy goes out on a hot July day and goes 80mph around a fixed radius turn w/his knee down. His lean angle is 47.834566 degrees (he likes precision). His bike is set up properly and he does not scrape hard parts. Same biker guy goes out in January right after a severe ice storm... He remembers this website that told him he could go 80mph in which he proved to himself he could just 6 months prior. So he goes out and attempts it again... same speed, puts the bike into the turn only to find he low sides the bike and slams into the guard rail. If all things are created equal and your program spits out real world answers, why did he low side?

And please don't come back with, the idiot should have known better. Yes, I'm making extreme examples here, ones that I hope surely wouldn't happen. But the fact still remains (which you've readily admitted)... YOU'VE MADE ASSUMPTIONS. Same w/the guy's website you've referenced... he made assumptions too.

RIDDLE 2: A Moto2 (600cc) bike can and will corner faster than your S1000RR... and that is provided with having the same rider on both. When I say corner faster, I specifically mean... the amount of time it takes to get from the tip in of the turn to the exit (where I'm back at full throttle) of the turn (which in essence is what folks are gleaning from your website/curve speed calculator - how fast can I take this turn). If you choose to say that is untrue, I'm not sure there's any help for you... if you agree, then ask yourself why? (HINT: it in part has to do with the coefficient of friction that was assumed when coming up with the G-force assumption for the program)
---------------------
And a quote from your website you quoted above (James Davis)... which btw, has some pretty darn good information on his site. Quote from Mr. Davis: "limits are interdependent, not independent". You've "fixed" your assumptions - he's telling you that things change and when you're trying to find your limit (max speed for a given turn), you need to understand the limitations affecting it... change one, and something else changes... change another, and boom, another something else changes.

I have carefully read your reply and everything is said is actually true.

It seems as if you and many others misunderstand the intent and application in which my new tool is mean to be used.

(I also had James review my app and he said the calculations were correct and there are no other variables. He obviously understood the method in which to use my tool).

The fact that you stated that "what if the roads are slippery" and you can't take a turn at the resulting speed my tool says, shows me that you don't really understand why and how the tool is used.

My tool allows a rider to select a lean angle. I couldn't come up with a term for it, but this lean angle selection is selected by the rider - you.

The way I see it, riding a motorcycle is like flying a plane. There is a concept of "pilot in command" meaning that when you are behind the handle bars, you should know what YOU are capable and what YOUR BIKE is capable of. All responsibility rests on you, and there are no excuses and faults of others besides your own.

So when you select 55 degrees lean, you should be an experienced enough rider to know that you should have some awesome tires, and you should also be prepared for your knee to be dragging and maybe a footpeg too depending on how you set up your pegs

If you are an inexperienced rider, like me, I actually select 40 degrees.
Although I don't truly know that I lean at 40 degrees it's a guesstimate.
Because my calculations are calculated by the "combined bike + rider" lean angle (angle between the contact patch of the tire, and the CG) my body position effects the "visual lean angle". Visual lean angle most people see - the bike's lean angle.

By following a friend who runs at my pace, I can guesstimate their lean angle through a turn. And since i'm right behind them in that same turn going the same speed, my effective lean angle is very similar.

So I estimate my EFFECTIVE lean angle (bike+rider) to be around 40 degrees.
40 degrees is my comfort level, and on a dry clean road, me and my bike can do it again and again and again.

So I input 40 degrees into the tool and it could tell me that with a clean dry road, with no oncoming buss or truck that crossed the yellow line coming into my lane that I can take corner Y at X mph.

Is it so necessarily to state obvious things such as "what if the roads are wet? what if there is gravel? what if there is a dead deer on the road?"

I thought I was talking to an educated crowd, not preschool children.


Now, lets go back to how my tool is awesome. As I mentioned above, I have no good way to find out my EFFECTIVE lean angle. I can have a friend take a picture of me in the 1st hairpin at palomar, and I can print out the picture and measure my lean angle on paper. But that would be BIKE lean. It wouldn't take into account the fact that I'm hanging off the bike (even if my body position is not perfect hahaha).


As another member posted asking for effective lean angle calculator - that's what my program does!
For us to precisely measure effective lean I have to measure the bike's CG.
To do this, lay your bike on its side. Then with your finger, lift the bike. When you find the point in which the bike is balanced, that is the CG of your bike. (obviously not a practical solution). Then it gets ever more complicated finding your body CG and then combining the CG's of your body position on the bike during a turn and the CG of the bike...

So - my program can actually tell you your EFFECTIVE lean angle. How?
Take a turn and log it with GPS. Then input that turn into my program and select 55 degrees. If the speeds of my program are greater than what your GPS says your midcorner speed is, your lean angle is shallower than 55 degrees.
Then try 50 degrees. Once the numbers are pretty close - that's your effective lean angle.

I used the data acquisition system out of my race car and installed it on my bike. I was showing midcorner speed on palomar the first left hand hairpin around 35mph.
The selection of my program of 40 degree lean was the closest. Around 34mph. So I'm probably doing that turn at 41 effective lean degrees.

Every turn is going to have a slowest point. A point in which the bike is going the slowest. Sorry for keep bringing up cars, but that's the only good experience I have. In cars there are levels of importance when you go fast.

A beginner driver works on threshold braking.
An intermediate rider works on good exit speed.
An advanced rider works on aggressive trail braking techniques

A step above "advanced" is the person who can do all these, with the greatest mid-corner speed. I've read many books regarding driving written by racers and they all agree on this. mid-corner phase will give you that last little bit of time that's the hardest to achieve. The last few 10th's of a second.
The best driver may do 0.5mph more at the apex than the 2nd best driver.

So when me and race friends (armature spec e30 racing) compare our GPS data side by side, we always look at our mid corner speed. The slowest speed in a particular corner. I may do 87mph at the apex of T10 at Infineon, and my buddy does 87.5mph. That's where the difference in time usually lies with our level of driving.

So perhaps another assumption I make, riders care about mid corner speed?
My program is there to show you the theoretical mid corner speed for a particular corner. I'm not calculating trail braking, deceleration/acceleration rates of your bike. Just a program that shows the speed for a given lean angle in a particular bend.

I'm not trying to sell this app and make money. I really just made it for fun. I had a blast making it and I have a blast using it.

Last edited by noamkrief; 01-02-2013 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:09 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noamkrief View Post
I have carefully read your reply and everything is said is actually true.
Awesome... a first for me in this thread, but dammit if I didn't try

Quote:
Originally Posted by noamkrief View Post
It seems as if you and many others misunderstand the intent and application in which my new tool is mean to be used.
Quite possible... my guess is you may be misunderstanding how a rider thinks too Many folks are not as book smart as you when it comes to regurgitating the laws of physics or attempting to produce a website as you have. I truly hope you take advantage of your time on the track and learn a bit about the intricacies of mastering (improving upon) the actual application of great corner speed. You'll know when you do... it's a great feeling.

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I had a blast making it and I have a blast using it.
That's really all that matters...
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:33 PM   #60 (permalink)
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when someone selects the max lean angle, you should have a dropdown box appear at the bottom for selecting the diameter of the riders balls.


P.S. I like the app and additional physics lessons
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